Pictures and story of the 1909-S $20 that's been in the B. Max Mehl family since 1930... 0

[MarkFeld]

Sadly, I never got to know B. Max Mehl, as I was born in 1954 and he passed away in 1957.

He was my grandmother's uncle and my grandmother was thrilled when she learned that I was a serious coin collector at a young age. Over the years, I have acquired a number of Mehl catalogs, checks and a poster from family members, as well as forum members.

My most treasured remembrance of him and my grandmother is one I have posted about previously, but will mention it again now. This time, however, I will add a bit more information....My grandmother was born in 1909 and for her wedding gift, her uncle/B. Max Mehl, gave her a gem 1909-S Saint, along with a handwritten note of congratulations.

The signed note, which contains the name of his wife, Ethel - the same as that of my grandmother - reads:

“May your life be as bright and full of solid happiness as is the enclosed.
Dec-30-1930“

When I was young, my grandmother promised me that she would give me the coin one day. Fast forward several years to a time when her son/my uncle told me he had the coin and would be giving it to me. He also told me that my grandmother (who had apparently forgotten her promise to me) was about to have the coin made into a necklace, but he convinced her not to do so and to keep the coin for me. Whew!

For many years, I have had the coin in an NGC holder, with a label which includes my grandmother's name.

Needless to say, I will always treasure it and the handwritten wedding congratulations note which accompanies it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zebo]

Neat story and remembrance. It would have been something if you could have had a conversation with Max (hypothetically of course). Just think of all the little tidbits you could have learned. Thanks for sharing.

[GoldFinger1969]

Mark, great story and great coin.  I've been reading your posts and going back-and-forth with you on various message boards over the years and you are always a class act, responding courteously and generously sharing your knowledge and information. 

Thanks for sharing this.

[GoldFinger1969]

These NGC holders that totally encase the coin and make it impossible to see the edge....any thought to getting it put into a more modern holder ?  I am sure you could preserve the label, given the sentimetal value.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mark, great story and great coin.  I've been reading your posts and going back-and-forth with you on various message boards over the years and you are always a class act, responding courteously and generously sharing your knowledge and information. 

Thanks for sharing this.

Thank you - it was very kind of you to say that.

Regarding your comment and question which I copied below - I have not given any thought to having the coin re-holdered. But it’s not going anywhere, so you never know. 😉

“These NGC holders that totally encase the coin and make it impossible to see the edge....any thought to getting it put into a more modern holder ?  I am sure you could preserve the label, given the sentimetal value.”

 

 

[realone]

What an amazing story, an amazing coin with the coolest of provenances. I would keep it in that oldish holder if it were me. I would also be proud to own that piece, needless to say you are a lucky man.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, realone said:

What an amazing story, an amazing coin with the coolest of provenances. I would keep it in that oldish holder if it were me. I would also be proud to own that piece, needless to say you are a lucky man.

The problem with the holder is it is impossible to see the edge.  I never knew why NGC created that holder in the first place.  But I can certainly understand Mark's attachment to the coin in it's entirety.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Not that it matters...but I bet that the 1909-S was pretty much worth face value when Mark's grandmother got married, maybe $25-$30 tops given the condition.  Today, that coin is worth about $5,000 it appears, give or take.  Looks like the price takes off right at about the MS66 level.

Beautiful coin, beautiful story. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[realone]

28 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The problem with the holder is it is impossible to see the edge.  I never knew why NGC created that holder in the first place.  But I can certainly understand Mark's attachment to the coin in it's entirety.

 

I don't understand, every grading co at the time didn't  unfortunately show the edge. But that doesn't make them bad holders. Today with the prongs it is obviously more informational , that being said I have heard about the prong holders damaging white metal coins too so that doesn't help either. All holders are problematic , I am just fond of the older ones.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 minutes ago, realone said:

I don't understand, every grading co at the time didn't  unfortunately show the edge. But that doesn't make them bad holders. Today with the prongs it is obviously more informational , that being said I have heard about the prong holders damaging white metal coins too so that doesn't help either. All holders are problematic , I am just fond of the older ones.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd never buy that holder unless I had to. Even the look -- totally encased in solid white plastic -- doesn't appeal to me aside from the inability to see the edges. 

Again, maybe it's just me. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/6/2020 at 3:39 PM, MarkFeld said:

Fast forward several years to a time when her son/my uncle told me he had the coin and would be giving it to me. He also told me that my grandmother (who had apparently forgotten her promise to me) was about to have the coin made into a necklace, but he convinced her not to do so and to keep the coin for me. Whew!

Mark, how did your uncle end up with the coin and not your mother or father (or any other of your grandmother's children) ?

Not sure when the handoff to you took place (unclear if after or before your grandmother passed away), but the coin had to have appreciated.  Nice that your uncle was more concerned with familial bonds than $$$ and rightfully recognized that you should have the coin.

Edited July 7, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mark, how did your uncle end up with the coin and not your mother or father (or any other of your grandmother's children) ?

Not sure when the handoff to you took place (unclear if after or before your grandmother passed away), but the coin had to have appreciated.  Nice that your uncle was more concerned with familial bonds than $$$ and rightfully recognized that you should have the coin.

My memory is fuzzy on that, as I’ve had the coin for about twenty years. But I think my uncle had power of attorney and was aware that the coin was being saved for me.

[Just Bob]

Great coin and a great memento. I really like the custom label.

[GoldFinger1969]

The coin also looks pretty solid for the grade (MS65).  Roger Burdette's new book on Saint-Gaudens DE's has lots of information on the varieties and die strikes of the 1909-S, as I am sure Mark is aware (since HA puts out the book).

[Conder101]

14 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I never knew why NGC created that holder in the first place.

NONE of the TPG's had holders that allowed you to see the edge until NGC created the pronged insert in 2002, and then basically never used it until they "invented" it again in 2009 for use on the President and NA dollars.  (AnACS came close behind in 2009, and PCGS third in I think 2010.  In both cases they started with the small dollars.)  And then expanded it to the rest of the coins over the next two years.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Conder101

[GoldFinger1969]

8 hours ago, Conder101 said:

NONE of the TPG's had holders that allowed you to see the edge until NGC created the pronged insert in 2002, and then basically never used it until they "invented" it again in 2009 for use on the President and NA dollars.  (AnACS came close behind in 2009, and PCGS third in I think 2010.  In both cases they started with the small dollars.)  And then expanded it to the rest of the coins over the next two years.

Conder, didn't the earliest versions of PCGS's holders let you see SOME of the edge, even if not all of it ?  The OGH's and others that followed at least didn't 100% block it like the holder above, right ?

[Conder101]

You had to look through translucent plastic that introduced distortions and no I don't really think you could see the edges.  Later when they went to the soft rubber gaskets you could see enough to tell that something was there, but it was like looking through a heavy fog.

[RWB]

There are possibly a whole set of Saint-Gaudens double eagle varieties involving edge lettering and stars, but the holders - even the new ones, prevent making definitive examinations.

[GoldFinger1969]

4 hours ago, RWB said:

There are possibly a whole set of Saint-Gaudens double eagle varieties involving edge lettering and stars, but the holders - even the new ones, prevent making definitive examinations.

So it has to be done at the grading company before the coin is slabbed, and then put on the label.

[RWB]

11 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

So it has to be done at the grading company before the coin is slabbed, and then put on the label.

First the research has to be done to identify the varieties. The TPGs are not really structured to do this - no coin is given enough exam time. Once the basic data are established and verified, the attribution can be done by the authenticators. Grading is irrelevant.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

First the research has to be done to identify the varieties. The TPGs are not really structured to do this - no coin is given enough exam time. Once the basic data are established and verified, the attribution can be done by the authenticators. Grading is irrelevant.

Do you have a solution ?  Seems like the edge of the Saints contains alot of information aside from the Obverse and Reverse.

[RWB]

The TPGs have to come up with something that they feel comfortable using. The need is for more space between the coin edge and the solid inner ring of a holder. Longer, thinner support prongs, or possibly clear think prongs with a slight overlap on both rims...or ? Maybe a flexible holder, or an optically clear non-distorting holder edge where the slab is a body with only a top plate instead of the present equal-size shells....?

Not solutions --- not even a suspension --- but maybe an idea or two.

[jtryka]

What a great story!  Thanks for sharing it and the photos of the coin.

[jgrinz]

hmmph

Never knew Mark had a soft side … :-)

Great Story and congrats its a beauty 

 

[Conder101]

On 7/10/2020 at 10:53 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Do you have a solution ?  Seems like the edge of the Saints contains alot of information aside from the Obverse and Reverse.

You need a slab like what Digital Coin Grading Service used.  The coin was in a "well" in the front shell and the back shell closed it off.  The effect was like that of a coin in an Airtite mounted to the surface of the slab.  It provided a clear 360 degree view of the edge of the coin.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Mark, I just bought one of the price catalogs from Max Mehl.  Should get it any day now (mail is ridiculous, taking forever). 

[GoldFinger1969]

Well, I got the catalog from the B. Max Mehl Co. today.  It's the #83 Price List and I am pretty sure that equates to 1959.  Lots of interesting prices and stuff; the 1903-O Morgan Dollar listed for $500 in Unc. Gem condition.

Only thing was not quotes for Saint-Gaudens or Liberty Double Eagles.  I guess they didn't do enough business in those coins to make it worthwhile to include, though they did have some gold coins including commemoratives.

Still, interesting to have something like this from the Golden Age of Coin Collecting.