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French 20-franc gold rooster
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334 posts in this topic

Would anyone care to venture a guess as to why of the 117 million minted not a single rooster has been graded MS-67, or higher by any TPG service?

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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8 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Would anyone care to venture a guess as to why of the 117 million minted not a single rooster has been graded MS-67, or higher by any TPG service?

Same thing with pre-1933 (MS) sovereigns. Good question.

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Same thing with 10 Indians Us gold. Seems you could count on your hands ones that hit even 68 only one 69 that I know of and never been a 70. I know for a fact quite a few of them were saved by people at the mint straight off the dies.

It seems they are just ridiculous tough on gold coins as the small difference in grade sometimes represents tens of thousands. Afraid your going to make a fortune maybe. But they seem to want to compensate this cramming all the coins in the middle by giving coins all manner of pluses, stars, stickers and PQ smiley faces than dare give you a bump. There are 10 grades which is plenty. Either it makes the next grade or it don't in my mind.

But I have seen Silver dollars hit 68-9 regularly with small imperfections. I could almost guarantee you I could reach in my pocket right now and send in a Jefferson nickel and get a 68-69. A gold coin on the other hand they expect it to never even bump into another coin in a bag. Its just the way it is, you got about 7 MS grades to strive for and 1 coin sitting in a Kings collection or Museum. Which may have more to do with it than we care to admit.

Edited by cowbaby
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3 hours ago, cowbaby said:

Same thing with 10 Indians Us gold. Seems you could count on your hands ones that hit even 68 only one 69 that I know of and never been a 70. I know for a fact quite a few of them were saved by people at the mint straight off the dies.

It seems they are just ridiculous tough on gold coins as the small difference in grade sometimes represents tens of thousands. Afraid your going to make a fortune maybe. But they seem to want to compensate this cramming all the coins in the middle by giving coins all manner of pluses, stars, stickers and PQ smiley faces than dare give you a bump. There are 10 grades which is plenty. Either it makes the next grade or it don't in my mind.

But I have seen Silver dollars hit 68-9 regularly with small imperfections. I could almost guarantee you I could reach in my pocket right now and send in a Jefferson nickel and get a 68-69. A gold coin on the other hand they expect it to never even bump into another coin in a bag. Its just the way it is, you got about 7 MS grades to strive for and 1 coin sitting in a Kings collection or Museum. Which may have more to do with it than we care to admit.

Maybe there remains a shred of honest, accurate grading for some of the more common gold coins? If the least marked-up piece is accurately graded MS-65, then so be it.

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On 7/5/2020 at 12:08 AM, kbbpll said:

There are 4 MS67 and one MS67+ sold on Heritage.

I am afraid this may be true for other TPG services, but not NGC from the stated 1899-1906 tabbed period. I repeat, NOT ONE! Why?

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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'Maybe there remains a shred of honest, accurate grading for some of the more common gold coins? If the least marked-up piece is accurately graded MS-65, then so be it.' 

That is YOUR opinion which you are certainly entitled to. I just don't happen to share it. To me it has more to do with what a grader thinks of the coin overall. Of course I think they try to give an honest assessment, its just honesty has less to do with it imo. 

As I said, some pieces were taken directly by the mint people straight from the dies. What this implies to me is certain coins never had even close to a good strike and the designers did not know what they were doing because after around 66 the marks are pretty much supposed to go away. Believe what you want. A far as grading, I have looked at them my whole life and quite frankly they are all over the map at times.  The grade, Its just an opinion. But I do believe that they try to do their best with the skills that the grader has and the tools available to him.

I know the real reason why..But for the sake of argument I won't go into it.. But I do agree that if the best coin only grades 65 so be it.

I'm out. Everyone have a great day and hope you find that special one today.

 

Edited by cowbaby
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16 hours ago, kbbpll said:

There are 4 MS67 and one MS67+ sold on Heritage.

The official NGC population reports remain unchanged: for the specific orginal non-restrike tabbed period, 1899-1906, not a single 20-franc gold rooster (or coq Marianne) has been graded MS-67, or higher. [The figures given for MS-66 and MS-65 are similarly scarce.]  Why?

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1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I am afraid this may be true for other TPG services, but not NGS from the stated 1899-1906 tabbed period. I repeat, NOT ONE! Why?

You didn't specify a date range originally, and said that none were graded MS67 or higher, so I was merely pointing out that there are some MS67 or MS67+ in the series. Other than that I don't know anything about these.

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9 hours ago, cowbaby said:

Same thing with 10 Indians Us gold. Seems you could count on your hands ones that hit even 68 only one 69 that I know of and never been a 70. I know for a fact quite a few of them were saved by people at the mint straight off the dies.

It seems they are just ridiculous tough on gold coins as the small difference in grade sometimes represents tens of thousands. Afraid your going to make a fortune maybe. But they seem to want to compensate this cramming all the coins in the middle by giving coins all manner of pluses, stars, stickers and PQ smiley faces than dare give you a bump. There are 10 grades which is plenty. Either it makes the next grade or it don't in my mind.

But I have seen Silver dollars hit 68-9 regularly with small imperfections. I could almost guarantee you I could reach in my pocket right now and send in a Jefferson nickel and get a 68-69. A gold coin on the other hand they expect it to never even bump into another coin in a bag. Its just the way it is, you got about 7 MS grades to strive for and 1 coin sitting in a Kings collection or Museum. Which may have more to do with it than we care to admit.

Please try that with some Jefferson nickels and let us know how you do. In the meantime, I’d suggest not going from an “almost guarantee” to a “guarantee”.

The fact coins are saved from “straight off the dies” doesn’t mean they are of MS68 or better quality. And I don’t think the lack of $10 Indian pieces graded that high is the result of tight grading.

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23 hours ago, cowbaby said:

I know the real reason why..But for the sake of argument I won't go into it..

Oh, really?  But you had time to edit the post?  If you have a hypothesis to share or correct answer to your riddle to reveal then do so.  Otherwise you're just stirring the pot seeking attention.

I don't know the series that well but I'll play the game so here's my 3 guesses.

1. Gold is soft. Higher chance for a pre-strike and/or post-strike flaw.

2. Europeans haven't embraced third party grading to the same extent so the coins may be out there raw. (purely anecdotal)

3. If we're looking at the period of 1899-1906 there were 2 world wars on the continent as well as other conflicts. If the best examples didn't leave the continent prior to the wars they faced an uphill battle being fully preserved.

 

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I appreciate your interest and honesty.  It's been said make no major decisions following major surgery.  I mistakenly believed 16 coins ought to be a cinch and, regrettably,  buoyed by painkillers, it hasn't been.

1.  Gold is soft but we are talking, what, .18% gold composition and 21 mm., not double eagles.

2.  I have dealt with all the highly-regarded coin emporiums whose wares (in France are priced in euros using their own quaint scale including FDC, or fleurs de coin, a range of from MS65-MS70.) I submitted it to a TPG here in the U.S. who pegged it at MS64+. Like a viewer pointed out, when you add all the ancillary expenses, insurance, and possible seizure by CBP, not to mention use of bank wires which some prefer, it is a harrowing experience.  The outstanding coins lie raw in Europe because collectors do not want to invest in formal grading which may or may not pass muster and only a Duchess of Sussex can afford.

3.  For reasons not entirely clear to me, Rooster set registrants do not feel comfortable discussing their obsession publicly. Recently, a veritable dump of 1907 mint state roosters appeared. Unspoken, was the thought that this one act served to devalue all existing slabs.  Archaeological treasures in Kabul, Afghanistan survived many centuries of warlord-riven lands but I believe, I hope, the best of the best exist and time will bring them to light.

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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14 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

1.  Gold is soft but we are talking, what, .18% gold composition and 21 mm., not double eagles.

No, 91.6% gold composition, softer than our gold coins. and yes they are smaller and lighter than double eagles but that won't keep them from getting marks.

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I believe it is time I come right out and state what I know, not think, but KNOW what the major impediment to upper tier grading is, and let the chips fall where they may.

1.  A pronounced disinclination to assist the "collector" vs. the "investor" with the imposition of an unconscionably high fee schedule for membership and grading.

2. My pet peeve.  It should be obvious to anyone attempting, e.g., to complete a set registry of Roosters that one TPG dominates Europe, where most of the earlier roosters lie, raw and uncertified, while the other has firmly established their bi-coastal footprint in the United States forcing "collectors" of this sub-species of coin to engage in prohibitively high membership fees and risky cross-grading.

Ironically, NGC has for many years graded Roosters but will not (yet) accept gold World Coins along with those graded by other TPG in their Set Registry. Where does the the small "collector" fit into all this?  Does anyone truly believe the sale of raw, uncertified coins via the internet is foolproof? There is a gentleman on eBay right now who believes mere "authentication" of his Rooster constitutes "certification" which he insists was made without his knowledge. I urge all "collectors" (those who enjoy collecting as a hobby, irrespective of spot price) to exercise due diligence.

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On 7/6/2020 at 4:26 PM, CRAWTOMATIC said:

1. Gold is soft. Higher chance for a pre-strike and/or post-strike flaw.

This statement is incorrect.

Pure gold is very soft and malleable, but gold alloyed with copper to US or British standard is hard and has a thin tough layer on the struck surfaces. The body is somewhat softer but nearly the hardness of coin silver.

(See research by W. C. Roberts-Austin, Chemist of the Royal Mint; Prof of Metallurgy, Royal College, London.)

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This is true.  This particular coin is called a gold rooster but contains less than a fifth of a troy ounce of gold.  It was my original intent to complete my collection, at a high-quality Mint State level in 90 days but going well into my 1st year I realize now that that was a pipe dream.  I appreciate your  clarification and thank you for taking the time to answer. The top tier coins are out there somewhere raw and unappreciated.

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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I stand amused by folks who collect gold coins (by definition not cheap), and then gripe about seemingly trivial expenses such as TPG firm memberships and (yes, I really have seen this) the costs to park at a major national coin show. Perspective, people. Can we keep this stuff in perspective? Huh?

 

But Quintus is right about one thing. Especially as it pertains to World gold, there is far more out there raw than the grand total of slabs, in a wide variety of grades, even gaudy high grades. Finding them may require travel. That is, if the airfares and hotel room costs don't break your bank reserved for gold coins. SHEESH!

 

By the way, if you can ever complete ANY collection in 90 days, just how desirable could it possibly be?

Edited by VKurtB
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On 7/8/2020 at 4:29 PM, VKurtB said:

I stand amused by folks who collect gold coins (by definition not cheap), and then gripe about seemingly trivial expenses such as TPG firm memberships and (yes, I really have seen this) the costs to park at a major national coin show. Perspective, people. Can we keep this stuff in perspective? Huh?

 

But Quintus is right about one thing. Especially as it pertains to World gold, there is far more out there raw than the grand total of slabs, in a wide variety of grades, even gaudy high grades. Finding them may require travel. That is, if the airfares and hotel room costs don't break your bank reserved for gold coins. SHEESH!

 

By the way, if you can ever complete ANY collection in 90 days, just how desirable could it possibly be?

1.  Bullion gold is expensive but five French 20-franc gold roosters do not even equal one American Gold Eagle [in AGW].

2.  Upgrading is a continual affair.  You will always have a cache of superseded coins you no longer want which can be used to obtain what you need. I have never found it necessary to travel to develop my collection. If you have a cell and an innate curiosity, and are willing to take calculated risks, you're good. International transactions do not intimidate me. Time is of the essence; if you prefer to "sleep on a decision" overnight you will invariably discover your rare opportunity is gone, particularly with eBay.

3.  There are many approaches to coin collecting.  It is a shame the TPG Shotcallers are totally unaware of the peculiar conundrum faced by those handful of collectors who, for whatever reason, run into the walls and glass ceilings of assembling a quality grade collection. My Set Registry is # 1 [at PCGS] but is hardly the desirable collection it could and should  be. What's really needed is an end to the East Coast-West Coast rivalry, a merger of all TPG, and the adoption of one universally accepted standard application of the best of all grading systems -- and an eventual leap forward to laser-grading.  [We also need a return to  the Golden Age of truly magnificent U.S. coinage and currency: devoid of clearly manufactured errors in coins and bleeding dyes in currency. The Lincoln cent, prettied up with a cosmetic composition is an embarrassment] and perhaps an annual heavily- publicized world-wide approach to enticing the non-collector to come in with their inherited finds as a public service to collectors.

A glance at all the woefully incomplete French 20-franc gold rooster Set Registry compilations give one the impression the well-intentioned collector bit off more than they can chew, are in over their heads, and languish in silence.  This must end.

One final note: any suggestion there may be a correlation between a well put together collection assembled by a well-positioned collector, quickly, that reflects on its "desirability" is strictly in the eye of the beholder. Whole rare collections come on the auction block regularly and are swooped up instantly, its purchasers often cloaked in anonymity.  This allows for the release of superfluous high-quality specimens if not held by a fanatic. And the cycle continues.

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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On 7/5/2020 at 6:49 AM, cowbaby said:

I could almost guarantee you I could reach in my pocket right now and send in a Jefferson nickel and get a 68-69.

Good luck with that. About 15 years ago I had a dealer approach me with thousands of original bank rolls and some mint sealed bags. There was a wide variety of dates from the late 1950's to the current day and all denominations. I bought the entire deal for very little above face as the demand for this stuff was near non-existent. I went through every coin and ended up submitting several hundred - maybe a thousand total. I made at least one pop 1 and had quite a few assorted tied for top pops. However, not a single MS69 across all denominations. Only a handful of MS68 (mainly 10c & 25c) and none were 5c. Most graded MS66-MS67. 

If you pull a Jefferson nickel out of your pocket and you grade it MS68-MS69, I'd either question my grading skills or buy a lottery ticket. 

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If you pull a Jefferson nickel out of your pocket and you grade it MS68-MS69, I'd either question my grading skills...”

 

Sir, you are being way too kind. I’d say if that happened, my grading skills would s*ck.

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2 minutes ago, Lancek said:

I'm surprised no one has chimed in with this yet.  But minting equipment of that time was inferior to what all mints put out today.  You could pull 100 coins directly off the press 100 years ago and none would be a 70.  They just couldn't produce that kind of strike quality.  Pull 100 coins off the press today, 99 will be a 70.

Even 30 or 40 years ago the mint barely put out any 70s.  I collect modern commems.  '83, '84 '86... 70s are rare, and expensive.  Even those that have always been in the mint packaging.  Compared to '17, '18, '19... 70s are the norm

GSA Morgans, found locked away in a mint vault for decades.  Many never released for circulation.  Issued directly to the public in hard plastic cases.  Many still in those cases.  According the the OPs initial assumption, those should all be 70s right?  And yet we all know only a handful get even close to that.

 

 

You need to distinguish between the US Mint’s “circulation” shop (the main production floor) and the “numismatic” shop (a completely separate operation). What you have written here is correct from the numismatic shop, but IS NOT TRUE for the circulation shop. There are virtually NO “69’s or 70’s” ever coming off the high production presses.

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One reason is that circulation coins are struck horizontally and fall vertically immediately, while numismatic coins are struck vertically and must be plucked off the anvil die, either manually or by a mechanical device. At the British Royal Mint, when a visitor opts for the “strike my own coin” option, that bad boy is struck 4 times to bring up the detail, and as such, they truly are Specimen coins. The coin is removed from the anvil die by human fingers. Still attached to a person, not severed human fingers.

Edited by VKurtB
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3 hours ago, Lancek said:

I'm surprised no one has chimed in with this yet.  But minting equipment of that time was inferior to what all mints put out today.  You could pull 100 coins directly off the press 100 years ago and none would be a 70.  They just couldn't produce that kind of strike quality.  Pull 100 coins off the press today, 99 will be a 70.

Even 30 or 40 years ago the mint barely put out any 70s.  I collect modern commems.  '83, '84 '86... 70s are rare, and expensive.  Even those that have always been in the mint packaging.  Compared to '17, '18, '19... 70s are the norm

GSA Morgans, found locked away in a mint vault for decades.  Many never released for circulation.  Issued directly to the public in hard plastic cases.  Many still in those cases.  According the the OPs initial assumption, those should all be 70s right?  And yet we all know only a handful get even close to that.

 

 

You bring up an interesting point which inadvertently explains the marked disparity between the quality of the so-called original roosters, 1899-1906, and the so-called restrikes, 1907-1914, minted decades later [a subject explored in detail on various European websites].

For the time being, having distributed my APBs and BOLOs, I will just have to sell off my excess inventory -- and monitor my electronic mail.

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On 7/5/2020 at 12:08 AM, kbbpll said:

There are 4 MS67 and one MS67+ sold on Heritage.

There are actually 13 NCG-graded MS67s and 27 PCGS-graded MS67s and two more graded 67+, one each from the above TPG fraternity that for reasons frowned upon by "the experts" remain unacknowledged. That's 42 gorgeous gems BUT not one from the period I tabbed 1899 to 1906, generally referred to as the originals. Imagine paying well over $1,000 for a legitimate coin one-half the investor community refuses to recognize, much less acknowledge, as evident in your response which is by no means uncommon. [If the Dino the Dinosaur guy is watching, how about some "perspective" on this?]

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

the investor community refuses to recognize, much less acknowledge, as evident in your response

How about if you just leave me out of this? I already said that I don't know anything about these. I looked up "French 20-franc gold rooster" and that was the extent of it. Now you're lumping me in with some nefarious cabal who is out to ignore your precious niche. I don't appreciate it. Life and coin collecting are unfair. Get over it.

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7 hours ago, kbbpll said:

How about if you just leave me out of this? I already said that I don't know anything about these. I looked up "French 20-franc gold rooster" and that was the extent of it. Now you're lumping me in with some nefarious cabal who is out to ignore your precious niche. I don't appreciate it. Life and coin collecting are unfair. Get over it.

The commutation papers are on the governor's desk awaiting his signature.

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2 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I can see you have been talking to my sister again.

And she told me to say "hi" for her.

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