St. Guadens vrs Weinman 0

[1917]

Poll on early 20th century designers

[RWB]

A. Saint-Gaudens was at the end of his career; A. A. Weinman was near the beginning of his.

[Walkerfan]

Weinman was a student of St. Gaudens, so he was heavily influenced by him, anyway.

Their work bears a lot of similarities.  

I like them BOTH.  

[Moxie15]

I grew up in Cornish NH so I am a bit prejudiced, and the reality of lousy striking practices on the Walking half made this easy for me

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting topic, after reading Roger's spectacular book on Saint-Gaudens DE's I'm a bit biased, but I also have respect for Weinman.

Interesting that both of their obverse designs continue today on our national gold and silver coins.vl 

[1917]

The winning choice is "Tie"

 

[RAJ on COINS]

Saint Gauden's hands down.

The full frontal liberty is the more daring approach and that it was successfully pulled off is amazing.

 Also, the eagles on the reverses?...no contest!  The flying eagle vs. the one wearing "cowboy chaps"? 

Have to admit that the Weinman coin obverse is beautiful, especially with the flag as dreapery... but there can only be one best!   

[RWB]

Just an opinion, but Saint-Gaudens was a sculptor primarily of monumental works. Shaw monument in Boston and Sherman and Diana in NYC are just three of many outstanding works.

He prepared very few medals and of those only the Columbian Exposition original design is of unusual merit. His Washington medal, which is often praised, is both extremely high relief and extremely prosaic; the portrait being adequate but lifeless and the reverse a mess. The Theodore Roosevelt medal is simply "odd" with an eagle wearing feathered chaps and TR presented in a side-view photo image devoid of character. Even TR disliked it. Weinman did what he could to sculpt the Inaugural medal and should be credited with whatever merit it has.

His three (or two) coin designs are all taken from sculpture for the Sherman Monument in NYC, and were not conceived as bas relief. The standing eagle came from the Inaugural medal reverse via a bit of the Sherman Memorial - and it got worse with each iteration.

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by RWB

[kbbpll]

2 hours ago, RWB said:

Saint-Gaudens was a sculptor primarily of monumental works

His bas reliefs of the Ames brothers are on the Ames Monument out in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming at the high point of the original transcontinental railroad. I get a kick out of pointing that out to visitors when we take them around out there. There's a picture of a double eagle on the informative display.

I'll be a pariah on here for saying so, but I never thought the "most beautiful coin" was all that great. Her top looks like she's carrying a bag of rocks, her face looks like a Roman helmet bashed in, her legs are both inside her dress and outside it (pick one!), and the sun rays emanate from god knows where. There, I said it. The eagle on the reverse is amazing though.

[RWB]

The double eagle obverse is one of many renditions of Miss Anderson, but it is far too subtle and detailed for a coin. On the Sherman Monument it works - on a coin it is better than most but not really suitable - much the same as McNeil's Liberty on the 1916 quarter.

[Just Bob]

2 hours ago, kbbpll said:

His bas reliefs of the Ames brothers are on the Ames Monument out in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming at the high point of the original transcontinental railroad. I get a kick out of pointing that out to visitors when we take them around out there. There's a picture of a double eagle on the informative display.

We found this monument while hunting ghost towns in Wyoming several years ago. I found it interesting that St. Gaudens was the sculptor.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Just Bob

[1917]

20 hours ago, kbbpll said:

His bas reliefs of the Ames brothers are on the Ames Monument out in the middle of nowhere in Wyoming at the high point of the original transcontinental railroad. I get a kick out of pointing that out to visitors when we take them around out there. There's a picture of a double eagle on the informative display.

I'll be a pariah on here for saying so, but I never thought the "most beautiful coin" was all that great. Her top looks like she's carrying a bag of rocks, her face looks like a Roman helmet bashed in, her legs are both inside her dress and outside it (pick one!), and the sun rays emanate from god knows where. There, I said it. The eagle on the reverse is amazing though.

imagine if Weinman and St. Guadens collaborated on a coin and we got Weinman's stunning walking liberty obverse with St.Guadens fantastic flying eagle reverse on the same coin!

Edited June 18, 2020 by 1917

[RWB]

In a way, they collaborated on Roosevelt's 1905 Inaugural medal. Saint-Gaudens did the design and rough sketches, and Weinman made the detailed models and had the final reductions made.

[Zebo]

7 hours ago, 1917 said:

imagine if Weinman and St. Guadens collaborated on a coin and we got Weinman's stunning walking liberty obverse with St.Guadens fantastic flying eagle reverse on the same coin!

A bit off topic, but which flying eagle do you like the best and least:

St. Guadens

Christen Gobrecht

or Longacre? 

[1917]

12 hours ago, Zebo said:

A bit off topic, but which flying eagle do you like the best and least:

St. Guadens

Christen Gobrecht

or Longacre? 

depends on the coin. the really large coins, dollar/half-dollar area size on up, I'd take a detailed St. Gaudens , but for smaller ones I'd take the still wonderful, but not quite as detailed Gobrecht. It is my personal belief that most designs only look good in certain sizes. Imagine that crazy St. Gaudens squished onto a dime, or a Gobrecht onto a double-eagle. (PS, I do think the Gobrecht looks great on the dollar, I just think in GOAT considerations, St. Gaudens has a slight edge). Longacre's I'm actually not that impressed with in comparison to the other two. In general it's a great little penny, and is very significant for starting the small cent, but, again, in GOAT terms, it's not that far along. but as far as one-cent designs, pretty good.

[Walkerfan]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:51 PM, Zebo said:

A bit off topic, but which flying eagle do you like the best and least:

St. Guadens

Christen Gobrecht

or Longacre? 

You left out Herman McNeil, which is probably my very favorite.

Then Saint Gaudens, Gobrecht and Longacre, in that order.

All are stunning in their own way.

[Zebo]

6 hours ago, Walkerfan said:

You left out Herman McNeil, which is probably my very favorite.

Then Saint Gaudens, Gobrecht and Longacre, in that order.

All are stunning in their own way.

Completely slipped my mind - add Herman McNeil.  thanks for reminding me.

[RWB]

4 hours ago, Zebo said:

Completely slipped my mind - add Herman McNeil.  thanks for reminding me.

MacNeil was the only coin designer who based his eagle on a photo of a real eagle in flight.

[1917]

2 hours ago, RWB said:

MacNeil was the only coin designer who based his eagle on a photo of a real eagle in flight.

probably why it looks more realistic than say, a Morgan... it looks good on the quarter, but again with proportions, on a big surface? ehh.....

[RWB]

MacNeil tried several views of a flying eagle. Some are reproduced from original sketches in my book Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921. (The originals were owned by Eric P. Newman.)

[olympicsos]

Saint Gaudens designed an aesthetically pleasing double eagle, but it is important to note that Saint Gaudens is not without controversy. The Shaw monument he designed in Boston is criticized for having racial undertones and is frequently vandalized, and there are books and articles which mention that Saint Gaudens might have had racist views himself. Although at the same time, he was the first sculptor to portray the African Americans as actual human beings in the Shaw memorial rather than caricatures which were common portrayals of African Americans during Saint Gaudens time. But Saint Gaudens also attracted controversy for not using the actual soldiers from the 54th regiment as subjects for the monument. Also to his credit, he also used Hettie Anderson, a biracial woman, as a subject for his sculptures.

It is also worth noting that the Saint Gaudens $10 Indian Head design can be seen as a cultural misappropriation of Native American culture by having a biracial lady liberty with Caucasian features wear an Indian war bonnet which is only worn by Natives who have earned the privilege to wear one. Although that instance of cultural misappropriation was TR's fault as he insisted on the war bonnet, and although TR did take some progressive strides during his presidency, TR saw Native Americans as inferior and as peoples that must be defeated as much as he respected them as warriors. This brings me to my next point, that James Fraser, the Buffalo Nickel and Oregon Trail Half designer may not have been a racist himself, but also was not without controversy as Fraser's monument of TR at the Museum of Natural History in NYC has also been interpreted as racist and portraying Native Americans and African Americans as beneath TR and whites, and also has been vandalized. 

Longacre's portrayal of lady liberty on the Indian Head Cent can also be seen as a cultural misappropriation of Native American culture for the same reasons Saint Gaudens $10 Indian Head eagle is one. 

Weinman would seem like the lesser controversial choice when viewing things from a 21st century prospective and in light of the national discussion on racism and cultural misappropriation we have been having recently; and even though this name never came up so far in this thread, Charles Barber can be seen as even less controversial than Saint Gaudens or Weinman despite having a bad rap by some in the hobby. I am not saying one shouldn't purchase a $10 Indian Head Eagle or a Buffalo Nickel or an Indian Head Cent, but in the 21st Century there must be more context given around these designs, the artists, and the prevalent attitudes at the time that these coins were designed and in use. This discussion should be had about Saint Gaudens, Fraser, Longacre, if we want to bring more collectors into the hobby other than older white men. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by olympicsos

[1917]

2 hours ago, olympicsos said:

Saint Gaudens designed an aesthetically pleasing double eagle, but it is important to note that Saint Gaudens is not without controversy. The Shaw monument he designed in Boston is criticized for having racial undertones and is frequently vandalized, and there are books and articles which mention that Saint Gaudens might have had racist views himself. Although at the same time, he was the first sculptor to portray the African Americans as actual human beings in the Shaw memorial rather than caricatures which were common portrayals of African Americans during Saint Gaudens time. But Saint Gaudens also attracted controversy for not using the actual soldiers from the 54th regiment as subjects for the monument. Also to his credit, he also used Hettie Anderson, a biracial woman, as a subject for his sculptures.

It is also worth noting that the Saint Gaudens $10 Indian Head design can be seen as a cultural misappropriation of Native American culture by having a biracial lady liberty with Caucasian features wear an Indian war bonnet which is only worn by Natives who have earned the privilege to wear one. Although that instance of cultural misappropriation was TR's fault as he insisted on the war bonnet, and although TR did take some progressive strides during his presidency, TR saw Native Americans as inferior and as peoples that must be defeated as much as he respected them as warriors. This brings me to my next point, that James Fraser, the Buffalo Nickel and Oregon Trail Half designer may not have been a racist himself, but also was not without controversy as Fraser's monument of TR at the Museum of Natural History in NYC has also been interpreted as racist and portraying Native Americans and African Americans as beneath TR and whites, and also has been vandalized. 

Longacre's portrayal of lady liberty on the Indian Head Cent can also be seen as a cultural misappropriation of Native American culture for the same reasons Saint Gaudens $10 Indian Head eagle is one. 

Weinman would seem like the lesser controversial choice when viewing things from a 21st century prospective and in light of the national discussion on racism and cultural misappropriation we have been having recently; and even though this name never came up so far in this thread, Charles Barber can be seen as even less controversial than Saint Gaudens or Weinman despite having a bad rap by some in the hobby. I am not saying one shouldn't purchase a $10 Indian Head Eagle or a Buffalo Nickel or an Indian Head Cent, but in the 21st Century there must be more context given around these designs, the artists, and the prevalent attitudes at the time that these coins were designed and in use. This discussion should be had about Saint Gaudens, Fraser, Longacre, if we want to bring more collectors into the hobby other than older white men. 

Interesting points, but I think it's important to have distinction between the work of art and the artist. I understand this doesn't always apply, but in this case we can separate them into two subjects. At the moment we were discussing the coin, but we can certainly transition to the artist, so long as we make a point of it. 

Anyhow, upon the subject of the artist, it is an important discussion for the modern times, and any time, regardless of circumstances. I think we have to be careful to judge by work, as interpretation could be different than how the artist saw it. 

[kbbpll]

I ran across this paper on the subject a few years ago. The prose is rather "thick" but gives a lot of insight into the design choices of the times, which obviously extended into the early 20th century. http://www.michigancoinclub.org/articles14.html

[Zebo]

Let's get back to the subject - who produced better designs. How do these artists compare to designs on modern coinage? 

Much better 

better

equal

not as good

no where near as good?

[1917]

56 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Let's get back to the subject - who produced better designs. How do these artists compare to designs on modern coinage? 

Much better 

better

equal

not as good

no where near as good?

easy, much better. Those artists were in the true golden era of U.S. coin design (granted, who knows how much a future numismatist will mock me for this? recall to mind the hatred of the Morgan dollar in it's heyday)

Edited June 22, 2020 by 1917
grammar

[Zebo]

1 hour ago, 1917 said:

easy, much better. Those artists were in the true golden era of U.S. coin design (granted, who knows how much a future numismatist will mock me for this? recall to mind the hatred of the Morgan dollar in it's heyday)

I agree - 100%

[olympicsos]

On 6/21/2020 at 7:06 PM, Zebo said:

Let's get back to the subject - who produced better designs. How do these artists compare to designs on modern coinage? 

Much better 

better

equal

not as good

no where near as good?

This is a part of the subject as a "good" design that isn't tasteful from a 21st century perspective may not be seen as a "better" design. Or maybe the design is "not as good" because of how inappropriate the design will be in a 21st century context. There needs to be more discussion and more research about the classic coin artists that are popular. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by olympicsos

[Zebo]

4 hours ago, olympicsos said:

This is a part of the subject as a "good" design that isn't tasteful from a 21st century perspective may not be seen as a "better" design. Or maybe the design is "not as good" because of how inappropriate the design will be in a 21st century context. There needs to be more discussion and more research about the classic coin artists that are popular. 

The virtues or lack of by a designer shouldn't play into whether a design is good or not. The design should be judged on artistic standards alone. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Zebo

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/21/2020 at 10:13 AM, olympicsos said:

Saint Gaudens designed an aesthetically pleasing double eagle, but it is important to note that Saint Gaudens is not without controversy. The Shaw monument he designed in Boston is criticized for having racial undertones and is frequently vandalized, and there are books and articles which mention that Saint Gaudens might have had racist views himself. Although at the same time, he was the first sculptor to portray the African Americans as actual human beings in the Shaw memorial rather than caricatures which were common portrayals of African Americans during Saint Gaudens time. But Saint Gaudens also attracted controversy for not using the actual soldiers from the 54th regiment as subjects for the monument. Also to his credit, he also used Hettie Anderson, a biracial woman, as a subject for his sculptures.....It is also worth noting that the Saint Gaudens $10 Indian Head design can be seen as a cultural misappropriation of Native American culture by having a biracial lady liberty with Caucasian features wear an Indian war bonnet which is only worn by Natives who have earned the privilege to wear one. Although that instance of cultural misappropriation was TR's fault as he insisted on the war bonnet, and although TR did take some progressive strides during his presidency, TR saw Native Americans as inferior and as peoples that must be defeated as much as he respected them as warriors. This brings me to my next point, that James Fraser, the Buffalo Nickel and Oregon Trail Half designer may not have been a racist himself, but also was not without controversy as Fraser's monument of TR at the Museum of Natural History in NYC has also been interpreted as racist and portraying Native Americans and African Americans as beneath TR and whites, and also has been vandalized.... Longacre's portrayal of lady liberty on the Indian Head Cent can also be seen as a cultural misappropriation of Native American culture for the same reasons Saint Gaudens $10 Indian Head eagle is one. Weinman would seem like the lesser controversial choice when viewing things from a 21st century prospective and in light of the national discussion on racism and cultural misappropriation we have been having recently; and even though this name never came up so far in this thread, Charles Barber can be seen as even less controversial than Saint Gaudens or Weinman despite having a bad rap by some in the hobby. I am not saying one shouldn't purchase a $10 Indian Head Eagle or a Buffalo Nickel or an Indian Head Cent, but in the 21st Century there must be more context given around these designs, the artists, and the prevalent attitudes at the time that these coins were designed and in use. This discussion should be had about Saint Gaudens, Fraser, Longacre, if we want to bring more collectors into the hobby other than older white men. 

Ridiculous that some of this garbage is now happening.

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[1917]

we missed a flying eagle; Glenna Goodacre's reverse for the original Sacajawea dollar (probably the best modern design in the US for a circulating coin, being that it is the closest to the golden era of coin design... which is probably why the mint swiftly changed it...) I don't know that it is top dog per say, but I do think it is certainly a strong middle of the pack type.