Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[RAJ on COINS]

You heard it here first.  Expect the Mint to issue a 2033 "tribute" double eagle in 12 years (like the peace and morgan dollars issued this year).  The 33's are too important to American numismatics for the Mint to miss yet another opportunity to fleece the public...

Of course by then, Gold will be either $10,000 per ounce, or $20 per ounce (depending on whether someone has figured out a way to wrestle '16 psyche' to earth by then...)

https://www.gulftoday.ae/lifestyle/2021/08/09/nasa-to-study-16-psyche-asteroid-worth-$10-000-quadrillion 

 

[Henri Charriere]

@Ross J:  I'm all in!

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/11/2021 at 10:35 PM, Ross J said:

Of course by then, Gold will be either $10,000 per ounce, or $20 per ounce (depending on whether someone has figured out a way to wrestle '16 psyche' to earth by then...)

https://www.gulftoday.ae/lifestyle/2021/08/09/nasa-to-study-16-psyche-asteroid-worth-$10-000-quadrillion 

I'm sure my astronomy club will have some lead-ins to the rendevous. 

[RAJ on COINS]

...and if they blow the asteroid wrangling, and the sucker hits us straight on... we go the way of the dinosaur and no more climate change issues!  See? The ultimate case of "to solve a problem, throw money at it!"

Meanwhile, back at coins, I just bought Roger's "guide book of Peace Dollars".  can't wait to get into it this weekend...   

[RWB]

On 8/13/2021 at 12:07 PM, Ross J said:

Meanwhile, back at coins, I just bought Roger's "guide book of Peace Dollars".  can't wait to get into it this weekend...  

Hope your enjoy it. There were space limitations from Whitman, but we tried to get all the most important material in the book - especially the "1964-D" chapter.

[Mohawk]

On 8/13/2021 at 12:07 PM, Ross J said:

Meanwhile, back at coins, I just bought Roger's "guide book of Peace Dollars".  can't wait to get into it this weekend...   

You're in for a treat......I actually own Roger's Peace Dollar book myself.  I don't even collect U.S. coins and I really enjoyed it.  There is a ton of fascinating information in there.  And it also inspired my fiancée, who is building a Morgan Dollar date set, to add Peace Dollars as well!!

Edited August 14, 2021 by Mohawk

[GoldFinger1969]

Gold Notes:  Some interesting gold tidbits from the book....

• After the 1929 Stock Market Crash and onset of The Depression, non-U.S. banks would not distribute gold coin.  Only American and South African banks did so.
• Not a single Double Eagle from 1930-33 was released to a FRB for ordinary circulation.  All the surviving coins are from the Treasuer's distribution of coins to collectors, Mint payouts for deposits, individuals going to the Cashier, etc.
• No gold coins of any denomination were struck from 1917-19 during WW I.

Edited August 14, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 8/14/2021 at 11:06 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

• No gold coins of any denomination were struck from 1917-19 during WW I.

...except McKinley commemorative dollars.

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting while scouring old Heritage commentaries on pricey Saint sales:

Even though it was written-up in 2012, 30 years after the referenced event, this commentary appears to legitimize a so-called hoard of 40 1929 Saints found in England in 1984.  My understanding is that this turned out to be an urban myth  -- there was no hoard -- spread by some bigwigs (accidentally), including Walter Breen.

"Bowers' estimate of 1,250 to 1,750 pieces extant also appears wildly optimistic, given the certified totals and the distant probability of many more examples remaining undiscovered. In The Coinage of Augustus Saint-Gaudens as Illustrated by the Phillip H. Morse Collection, the authors note, 'It seems highly unlikely that any sizeable quantity of an expensive coin such as the 1929 Saint could exist without being certified. Around 40 pieces were discovered in England in 1984, but we are not aware of any other sizeable holdings of this issue that have been uncovered recently.'"

[Henri Charriere]

(I don't know from hoards but I could have sworn  there was yet another rare Saint auctioned off by Heritage for a mil + just yesterday?) 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/19/2021 at 10:59 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

(I don't know from hoards but I could have sworn  there was yet another rare Saint auctioned off by Heritage for a mil + just yesterday?) 

The 1921 Specimen that we talked about earlier, the non-Ghiradelli Chocolate Family coin: 

https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/double-eagles/1921-20-pr64-ngc-cac-jd-1-r8-as-a-proof-pcgs-89172-/a/1333-3499.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Sold for $2,010,000 (including bp) yesterday.  Coin was PR64+...Satin Finish Proof....Only 2 examples Known...JD-1, R.8 Proof.

Looks like there could be some new information in the coin description put up by Heritage.  Or maybe Roger was aware of it and decided not to include it.  I'm sure he'll chime in and tell us rather than me speculate and probably be wrong.

Edited August 20, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

I examined a 1921 DE purchased at auction. It was not a proof by any stretch of the imagination. The auction description for that piece was speculation and largely bologna.

I did not, and was not asked to examine the piece sold at auction. Thus it is not possible for me to make a meaningful comment regarding the coin. Someone paid $2 million for it. That was their decision.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:23 PM, RWB said:

I did not, and was not asked to examine the piece sold at auction. Thus it is not possible for me to make a meaningful comment regarding the coin. Someone paid $2 million for it. That was their decision.

Did you read the Heritage commentary from the site ?  Any thoughts ?

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/19/2021 at 11:19 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The 1921 Specimen that we talked about earlier, the non-Ghiradelli Chocolate Family coin: 

https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/double-eagles/1921-20-pr64-ngc-cac-jd-1-r8-as-a-proof-pcgs-89172-/a/1333-3499.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Sold for $2,010,000 (including bp) yesterday.  Coin was PR64+...Satin Finish Proof....Only 2 examples Known...JD-1, R.8 Proof.

Looks like there could be some new information in the coin description put up by Heritage.  Or maybe Roger was aware of it and decided not to include it.  I'm sure he'll chime in and tell us rather than me speculate and 

What I recall is there was a significance difference in the appraisal by one TPGS, and the other. I lack the necessary qualifications to weigh in on either Final Grading decision but it seems NGC, with no axe to grind, rendered a decision and allowed the chips fall where they may.

[RWB]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you read the Heritage commentary from the site ?  Any thoughts ?

I read the whole thing when published. Much of it has been in print before in one form or another. I won't comment on something like this that I have not examined carefully - some folks made an authentication determination. It's up to them to answer any questions about the coin.

Compare Heritage's photos with a 1916 sandblast  or 1910 satin proof.

Edited August 21, 2021 by RWB

[Cat Bath]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:23 PM, RWB said:

I examined a 1921 DE purchased at auction. It was not a proof by any stretch of the imagination. The auction description for that piece was speculation and largely bologna.

I did not, and was not asked to examine the piece sold at auction. Thus it is not possible for me to make a meaningful comment regarding the coin. Someone paid $2 million for it. That was their decision.

 I thought it looked a lot like the Hesselgesser coin.

Here is the "proof" 1921 that was recently sold.

Check out the die crack between the R-T

[Henri Charriere]

I believe you are right. NGC, if memory serves, called it misattributed and assigned it a grade 64 or 63. (The name eluded me.) And, yes, that price sounds familiar.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Misspelling

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/21/2021 at 11:52 AM, Cat Bath said:

I thought it looked a lot like the Hesselgesser coin.  

That coin was ranked 4th in the Top 1921's.

Roger's book has a nice researched back-and-forth between the CT museum curator Godard and Mint honcho Comparette in obtaining coins for the CT State Museum.

Akers Comments excerpts:  "The standing of the 1921 in the overall hierarchy of Saint-Gaudens double eagle rarities has changed less over the last seven decades than any other regular issue in the series. During that time, some issues have dropped precipitously from their place at the top (1924-S and 1926-S for example) and others have risen substantially (1920-S, 1930-S and especially 1927-D) but the 1921 has always been recognized as being among the top four rarities of the series, both 70 years ago and today, at least with respect to value. The only thing that has changed is the other three coins with it at the top. The 1921 is now considered to be the second most valuable regular issue Saint-Gaudens double eagle, surpassed only by the 1927-D whose extreme rarity was not recognized fully until the 1950s, at least in comparison to other issues in the series. Judged solely on its population rarity, meaning the total number of specimens known in all grades, the 1921 is certainly rare, but not exceptionally so, comparable overall to the 1920-S, but actually less rare than the 1930-S and 1932. However, as a condition rarity it is the unrivaled "Queen" of the Saint-Gaudens series because the condition at which it becomes extremely rare and valuable is lower than for any other issue. Of course, every Saint is a condition rarity at a certain level. For example, any issue is (or would be if one existed) a great rarity in MS68 or 69. For some issues MS67 is the rarity point, for others it is MS65 or MS66. But no issue, not even the 1927-D, is as difficult to locate in MS64 or higher grades as the 1921. Only four or possibly five specimens are known in the MS65 and MS66 grades combined with nothing finer. Even in the MS63 and 64 grades, the 1921 is a major rarity with no more than 12-15 examples known of those two grades combined....

"...there are only four 1921 double eagles that grade MS65 or MS66 combined. A fifth may exist if it isn't actually the fourth as I conjecture. The best two are the George Seymour Godard specimens which were probably obtained by Godard directly from the mint in the year of issue. Both came on the market in 1982, an extremely depressed coin market at the time, and were sold by Stack's in separate sales. The first, sold in March 1982, was purchased by a dealer and ended up a couple of years later in the William Crawford collection when he purchased it from a Superior sale in 1984; it is now owned by a prominent East Coast Saint-Gaudens specialist. The second Godard piece was sold in Auction '82 as Lot 447 where it was described by Norman Stack as "A twin to, or marginally better than the example we sold in our March sale." (It is important to note here that to every cataloger, including Norman Stack and myself, if you are describing two equal coins in separate catalogs, the second specimen you are describing is always "marginally better" than the one you just sold; it's our nature.) In my opinion, the two Godard pieces are so close in both overall quality and general appearance that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to choose one over the other as "the best". Both are absolutely fabulous coins. This second example is the one now offered here as part of the Dr. Steven Duckor Collection. The third notable 1921 is the Eliasberg specimen, sold with his incomparable collection in late 1982. (Obviously, 1982 was the greatest year ever for buying a gem 1921 Saint!) I purchased the Eliasberg specimen at the sale and subsequently sold it to Dr. Duckor, who later sold it in 1993. It is now in the Simpson Collection graded MS-65+. Many coins, especially the Saints, were ultra-conservatively graded in the Eliasberg sale, but the 1921 takes first place in that regard by a comfortable margin. It was graded "AU55 obverse, MS60 reverse" and realized $28,600. The fourth great 1921 known to me is the only one graded MS65 by PCGS and I feel it could easily have been given the same (+) designation that the Eliasberg specimen received or even graded MS66. I had never seen this coin prior to its appearance in the Goldberg's Dr. Hesselgesser sale in 2007, but the million dollar price it realized confirms its high quality. Could this specimen be the Belden Roach (Feb. 1944)-J.F. Bell (Dec. 1944)-F.C.C. Boyd (WGC 1946) coin? That coin was described in succession by the three most prominent auction houses of the era, B. Max Mehl, Stack's and Numismatic Gallery, as: a) "Brilliant Uncirculated. Perfect in every way.", b) "Brilliant Uncirculated, absolutely flawless."; and c) "A brilliant uncirculated gem". This was the only 1921 Saint ever so described and since it is obviously not one of the Godard coins or the Eliasberg specimen, it may be the coin sold by the Goldberg's in 2007 or it could be a fifth gem quality specimen.

After selling the Eliasberg coin in 1993 when he received an offer for it that was just too much to refuse, Dr. Duckor never really planned on ever purchasing another 1921. However, when he recently had a chance to buy one of the two MS66 Godard specimens, he couldn't resist and now he has actually managed to replace and upgrade both the 1920-S and 1921 from the Eliasberg Collection with the even finer specimens now offered here in his collection."   

[GoldFinger1969]

I've noted that interesting quirk about the 1921's before.....the relative ranking hardly moved over 70 years.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/21/2021 at 11:52 AM, Cat Bath said:

 I thought it looked a lot like the Hesselgesser coin. Here is the "proof" 1921 that was recently sold.  Check out the die crack between the R-T

How do we know it is a "die crack" ?  If we looked at the die striking it at the time this particular coin was struck, we'd see a matching line on the die between the R-T ?

I know that metal dies warp and develop cracks after lots of strikings under high pressure....BUT....does that mean you can't have a die crack when a die is brand new ?  I mean, brand new it shouldn't have a crack and you'd expect that the first few hundred (thousand ?) strikes should also be close to flawless, yes or no ?

Edited September 1, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

A coinage die can develop surface cracks at any time, but it is most common after about 1/3 of it's life. (At least that's the guess from looking at Morgan dollars "die studies" and noting number of pieces struck compared to those known with/without minor cracks. We really do not have enough data to do any more.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/31/2021 at 9:05 PM, RWB said:

A coinage die can develop surface cracks at any time, but it is most common after about 1/3 of it's life. (At least that's the guess from looking at Morgan dollars "die studies" and noting number of pieces struck compared to those known with/without minor cracks. We really do not have enough data to do any more.)

I think I asked this before somewhere in this or another thread, but I'll re-ask....given today's advanced metallurgy manufacturing and techniques, I would expect die cracks/failures/collapses to be rare or non-existent.

True ?

  

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/31/2021 at 9:05 PM, RWB said:

A coinage die can develop surface cracks at any time, but it is most common after about 1/3 of it's life. 

No, the substantive response lies right above you, excerpted in pertinent part.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/1/2021 at 12:44 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think I asked this before somewhere in this or another thread, but I'll re-ask....given today's advanced metallurgy manufacturing and techniques, I would expect die cracks/failures/collapses to be rare or non-existent.

True ?

  

[See the prior post...]

[RWB]

Modern die steel is much more consistent than a century ago, but it still develops surface cracks and microfractures.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:40 AM, RWB said:

Modern die steel is much more consistent than a century ago, but it still develops surface cracks and microfractures.

I'm going to do some research on this and report back.  Wonder why they don't use stronger metals like titanium, aluminum, etc.  Must be a reason.

[RWB]

Good die steel has specific mechanical properties resulting from mix of crystals and boundaries. What works for aerospace does not work for repetitive impact metal forming.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/1/2021 at 12:51 PM, RWB said:

Good die steel has specific mechanical properties resulting from mix of crystals and boundaries. What works for aerospace does not work for repetitive impact metal forming.

Yes, the strikes would be different.....qualities like luster would be affected by the microscopic surface of alternative metals. 

[RWB]

Modern dies are chromium coated for greater surface strength on the more resilient die steel. See technical articles on tool and die making/coating.

[Henri Charriere]

Like it or not, the U.S. cent is kaput. What I would like to know is when Crane linen yields to polymer -- it's only a matter of when, not if -- what would be a cost-effective appropriate substitute for the present metals being used in coinage, either here or abroad. And while I am on it, why is it with microprinting, security threads and watermarks, no one has been able to design and produce a $100. bill that is universally accepted by everyone everywhere?