1859-O Seated Liberty Dollar "Cleaned"? 0

[Jim Wooten]

I sent an 1859-O Seated Liberty Dollar in to our host for grading.  The grade was posted, I looked at the grade online and I was very disappointed with what I saw.  It was graded as Unc Details: Cleaned.  It doesn't say "improperly cleaned" Just has "Cleaned".  Now before I sent it in I examined the coin very closely going so far as to look at the coin under a microscope.  There were no lines or scratches that would indicate the stereotypical cleaned coin. There was still some mint luster on both sides of the coin (granted it wasn't full luster everywhere on the coin).  If held correctly in the light I could still get a slight cartwheel effect.  Yet it was still labeled as a cleaned coin.

So here are my questions to the all knowing.  How does one determine if a coin has been cleaned?  Also, now that it has been labeled "Cleaned", is it forever doomed to be worth next to nothing in relation to what it should be worth?  I purchased the coin as an investment (thus the reason I looked at it as closely as stated above) and have now lost most of the value of this coin.  What exactly do the TPGs use as a deciding factor to judge a coin to be cleaned?

Any responses would be helpful.  Thanks.

[JKK]

It would seem that the experts saw something about the coin that escaped you. Most cleaning is improper, so the slight distinction there is not as big as it sounds. Since we can't see it, we can't go very far in guessing what they saw, but it might have been buffing on the surface. Could also have been dipping residue. What usually tips me off to cleaning is not scratching or residue, but color. Most rough cleaning will impart a very unnatural color to the coin, or a very unnatural surface in some other way.

A cleaned coin in a slab is still an uncirculated coin proven genuine. While your results will vary, my general outlook is that cleaning knocks the value down a grade's worth; a bad cleaning, maybe two. For example, a Merc that is blast white and brightly shiny but has G-4 details? Well, it doesn't have that far to fall, but if it were a somewhat uncommon issue, it might value like an AG-3. There are many views on this and that's just how my experience and dealer conversations have gone. I used to have a local dealer who was highly scrupulous about marking coins as cleaned. An Unc Cleaned coin tended to sell for AU money--sometimes EF money.

In one area, at least, you paid tuition to learn a valuable lesson: if the coin is an investment, buy it already slabbed. If the idea is that you will buy them raw and then improve their overall value through careful selection and certification, then it is time for you to become expert in assessing cleaning. There are several ways you could do that.

[Moxie15]

welcome to the forum

cleaning does not need to leave scratches. 

there are many ways to clean a coin and a coin of 160+ years most likely has undergone at least one of the many types of cleaning.

breaks in luster can be a sign of cleaning. The people who looked at this coin have looked at more coins than either you or I and likely saw one or more signs that you or I might miss.

Try to post a picture of the coin so others can intelligently chime in. without a pic we can do nothing better than guess

[kbbpll]

I would add that the coin is probably not "worth next to nothing" or has "lost most of the value". https://www.ngccoin.com/auction-central/us/seated-liberty-dollars-1840-1873-pscid-47/auctions/1859-o-1-ms-fgrade-60-tgrade-60-coinid-16947 demonstrates that UNC Details coins of this date still sell for strong prices, and as JKK says, you'd still get AU money for it. I don't buy coins as an "investment", but that's the risk you take buying raw coins. You never know if it's already received that grade and got cracked out. Everyone has a different collecting strategy, but when I buy a raw coin, I check sold prices to see how bad it would be if it got the dreaded "cleaned", and factor those prices into my purchase decision. If I can't tell that it's been "cleaned", it doesn't really matter that much to me. I buy it to have it and enjoy it for a while, and if I had to sell and lost a few bucks, I'll write it off as "enjoyment money".

[JKK]

I don't have an adverse view of coins as investments (not that anyone advocated one; just further pensiveness on my part), but here's the thinking. One of my investment strategies in real life involves closed-end fixed income mutual funds, aka CEFs. I like them because I can reliably get them to pay me 10-15% in annual dividends. There is some risk of capital loss, some risk of dividend cuts, and so on; if I wanted 5%, or 3%, I could reduce those. Before I put money into a CEF, I get some idea of how they fund that dividend. I do a moderate amount of research. For example, if it turns out to be an equity CEF, I'm generally not interested. Asset allocation, mostly same, and so forth. Over the years I have come to understand these, what yields are unrealistically high and probably won't be paid for long at that level, and so on. I had to pay some tuition to get good at this. I had to absorb some capital losses, get disappointed by some surprise dividend cuts, you get the idea. If you're well enough funded to buy seated silver dollars as investments, you probably have similar stories about some sector of the securities markets.

I do read a fund's prospectus, and I like to look over a recent annual report and holdings list. This is easier for me because I used to work for a mutual fund manager, but it's an acquired skill. So is determining cleaning. If you are going to invest in coins, it's not materially different than growth investing in securities; you just learn how to evaluate them as you would PTPs or common stocks or conventional mutual funds or what have you. If it were very easy, surely more people would do it. Most people lose money and many get bummed out. Some lose money, call it tuition, and grow. Not very comforting when you get your coin back as Unc Cleaned, but many of us have paid it.

[Jim Wooten]

Thanks to all who have offered advice so far.  But how can one expect to ever find old coins that haven't been cleaned in some way?  Look at some of these blast white Morgan dollars that so many people just have to have.  No one can tell me that at least some of these haven't been dipped or cleaned in some way.  Oh well C'est La Vie...C'est La Mort.

But back to the case at hand.  I never really looked at it the way you all have explained it to me.  I have to admit though I am completely disappointed in the results of this particular venture I assure you I will not be dissuaded from my hobby.  I truly enjoy collecting coins and now I am one bit of knowledge richer than I was previously.  It was an expensive education but as I tell everyone about investing, you only lose money on that investment if you sell it at a lower price than what you paid for it.  So following that logic, if I don't sell it then I will not have lost any money.  The loss will be something my kids will have to deal with.  I really like all types of dollar coins of all ages.  I will just leave this one with my Ikes and Morgans.  Maybe even buy some more of the Seated Dollars to go with it because they really are nice coins.

I don't have the coin back from grading yet therefore I can't take any better pictures than the ones I have on my phone.  But when it gets back I will take a few and post them for more advice on the coin.

Thanks again for the ongoing education.

[LewisJones]

I think that you already understand what this company represents. The main problem is that many people fall for these scams, and I don't understand how. I mean, you can check anything about any company in the world as soon as you have access to the internet. And, just like someone said above, this is a scam to get as much money as possible from the so-called investors. If you want to invest some money and be safe, you should look for something else. You could also read interest rates on wallstreet ea so you can understand how all that works.

Edited October 9, 2022 by LewisJones

[J P M]

On 2/22/2020 at 4:02 PM, Jim Wooten said:

Thanks to all who have offered advice so far.  But how can one expect to ever find old coins that haven't been cleaned in some way?  Look at some of these blast white Morgan dollars that so many people just have to have.  No one can tell me that at least some of these haven't been dipped or cleaned in some way.  Oh well C'est La Vie...C'est La Mort.

But back to the case at hand.  I never really looked at it the way you all have explained it to me.  I have to admit though I am completely disappointed in the results of this particular venture I assure you I will not be dissuaded from my hobby.  I truly enjoy collecting coins and now I am one bit of knowledge richer than I was previously.  It was an expensive education but as I tell everyone about investing, you only lose money on that investment if you sell it at a lower price than what you paid for it.  So following that logic, if I don't sell it then I will not have lost any money.  The loss will be something my kids will have to deal with.  I really like all types of dollar coins of all ages.  I will just leave this one with my Ikes and Morgans.  Maybe even buy some more of the Seated Dollars to go with it because they really are nice coins.

I don't have the coin back from grading yet therefore I can't take any better pictures than the ones I have on my phone.  But when it gets back I will take a few and post them for more advice on the coin.

Thanks again for the ongoing education.

Welcome Jim...Like you said. All my coins will be going to my kids eventually but if you think about it there is no loss for them it is all profit because you paid for the coins not them.....LoL 

Edited October 8, 2022 by J P M

[EagleRJO]

Looks like the op is long gone as this is a revived thread by someone with a single axe-grinding cryptic post.

Also, if the coin only had partial luster as the op stated that would indicate to me a lightly cleaned uncirculated coin or minor circulation rubs. So, you either end up with an Unc Details or AU coin with essentially the same net effect.

Sounds like a crack out resold on eBay as uncirculated so it ends up someone else's problem, with hapless buyers coming along thinking they can cherry pick eBay garbage getting burned. You are lucky or cautious to get a straight buy from there. And wouldn't a dealer have slabbed a nice Unc older seated half dollar that hadn't been cleaned to make some money on that if they could.

I take the position that coins on eBay are over-graded, cleaned and/or counterfeit unless proven otherwise. And older raw coins in general have been cleaned unless proven otherwise, not the other way around imo.

Edited October 8, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 10/8/2022 at 2:32 PM, EagleRJO said:

Looks like the op is long gone as this is a revived thread by someone with a single axe-grinding cryptic post.

Also if the coin only had partial luster as the op stated that would indicate to me a ligjtly cleaned uncirculated coin or minor circulation rubs. So you either end up with an Unc Details or AU coin  with essentially the same net effect.

Sounds like a crack out resold on eBay as uncirculated so it ends up someone else's problem, with hapless buyers comming along thinking they can cherry pick eBay garbage getting burned. You are lucky or cautious to get a straight buy from there. And wouldn't a dealer have slabbed a nice Unc older seated half dollar that hadn't been cleaned to make some money on that if they could.

I take the position that coins on eBay are either over-graded, cleaned or counterfeit unless proven otherwise. And older raw coins in general have been cleaned unless proven otherwise, not the other way around imo.

I commented before my first cup of coffee I hate that. I never look at the date.. LoL.

[EagleRJO]

On 2/22/2020 at 4:02 PM, Jim Wooten said:

So following that logic, if I don't sell it then I will not have lost any money.  The loss will be something my kids will have to deal with.

I don't agree with that logic. The value of something is less than anticipated which is a loss any way you slice it. If you buy an impaired coin at an appropriate discount with eyes wide open that's fine. But finding out there is a problem after the fact and just passing that on to someone else isn't a solution or negate it being a loss. I would just sell it as is and get an unimpaired coin if that's what you really wanted, or just keep it if you are happy with the way the coin looks and okay with having a Details coin in your collection.

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2020 at 3:02 PM, Jim Wooten said:

Look at some of these blast white Morgan dollars that so many people just have to have.  No one can tell me that at least some of these haven't been dipped or cleaned in some way. 

Some of the famous hoard bags that haven’t been opened for over a century nonetheless have a MAJORITY of blast white coins. Their surfaces are not only AS ORIGINAL as toned ones, they are logically MORE ORIGINAL.  The toning fetish is insane. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 10/8/2022 at 4:00 PM, J P M said:

I commented before my first cup of coffee

I hate when that happens ... note to self, have coffee before posting anything [duck]. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/8/2022 at 6:33 PM, EagleRJO said:

I hate when that happens ... note to self, have coffee before posting anything [duck]. 

Crimson Tide game time. No coffee needed. Texas A&M is one of those “sandcastle teams”. They look real pretty, until the Tide rolls in. Geez, if Penn State and Alabama meet in a bowl game, gonna get weird up in here.