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do you guys think that its fake?
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45 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Mk123 said:

FAKE! Deface it and get rid of it.

For some reason, reading this, I thought of the scene from Emperor's New Groove. "... and SMASH IT WITH A HAMMER!!!" Also: the "kill it with fire," memes.

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Here we go again: another "innocent" 1804 dollar find. The stuff on the metaphorical floor is REALLY getting thick.

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I agree that embellishments like "found in a forgotten chest" or "found metal detecting:" are suspicious - nobody cares what the "story" is when the question is whether a multi-million dollar coin is fake or not. Authentication first, story later. I do wonder though, if it's already known to be fake, why someone would bother posting it to a forum filled with experts. Seems like the "is it good enough to fool somebody" question would be better answered by just trying to sell it somewhere.

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2 hours ago, kbbpll said:

I agree that embellishments like "found in a forgotten chest" or "found metal detecting:" are suspicious - nobody cares what the "story" is when the question is whether a multi-million dollar coin is fake or not. Authentication first, story later. I do wonder though, if it's already known to be fake, why someone would bother posting it to a forum filled with experts. Seems like the "is it good enough to fool somebody" question would be better answered by just trying to sell it somewhere.

Not saying that's what's happening but...if an individual knows a coin is counterfeit and attempts to sell it as real, that is attempted fraud and as it crosses state (or international) lines is likely to be a charged Federal felony. No laughing matter if caught.

However, if an individual knows a coin is counterfeit and asks a forum of experts if it is real, as far as I know no crime has been committed. If you're a smart counterfeiter, why take additional risk of being caught? Why not test your counterfeit out on a forum and see if it passes muster rather than get nabbed right away?

Pure speculation on my part, but that would make some degree of sense.

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17 hours ago, Kirt said:

Not saying that's what's happening but...if an individual knows a coin is counterfeit and attempts to sell it as real, that is attempted fraud and as it crosses state (or international) lines is likely to be a charged Federal felony. No laughing matter if caught.

However, if an individual knows a coin is counterfeit and asks a forum of experts if it is real, as far as I know no crime has been committed. If you're a smart counterfeiter, why take additional risk of being caught? Why not test your counterfeit out on a forum and see if it passes muster rather than get nabbed right away?

Pure speculation on my part, but that would make some degree of sense.

I am of the opinion that is EXACTLY what is going on all over this board with these 1804's.

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17 hours ago, Kirt said:

Not saying that's what's happening but...if an individual knows a coin is counterfeit and attempts to sell it as real, that is attempted fraud and as it crosses state (or international) lines is likely to be a charged Federal felony. No laughing matter if caught.

This factors only in the United States, unless another country has a law against possessing counterfeits of foreign money. Of course, if the counterfeit is trafficked into the USA, it immediately becomes fascinating to the Treasury.

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20 minutes ago, JKK said:

This factors only in the United States, unless another country has a law against possessing counterfeits of foreign money. Of course, if the counterfeit is trafficked into the USA, it immediately becomes fascinating to the Treasury.

Devil's advocate...what if it isn't just the US coins being tested like this? On these forums I've identified several world coins starting with an Ottoman para which showed up somewhat similarly to the 1804s; while not nearly as valuable they're certainly in the range that would make counterfeit economically viable. In that case I wasn't concerned about fakes based on how that question came in. Am I experienced enough to identify the coin and detect bad counterfeits? Sure. If it's a good counterfeit, however...I wouldn't trust me to detect it. 

You guys pick up a TON on US coins because you know them inside and out. I learn each time. What if the low frequency with which world coins are posted plus the collective experience on the board just isn't enough to pick up the same thing being done with them? I hate to be suspicious of each new post that starts with "what do I have here" or "I have XXX, what do I do?"

I can't think of a country that doesn't consider counterfeiting its own currency, either current or historical, as a pretty big deal.

Edited by Kirt
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Some of us are primarily world and ancient collectors who spend most of our time on here marking as read threads that concern someone's post-1950 damaged coin find. Just because we do not get many reps on here does not mean we are not on other boards, or out collecting in real life. This is not my primary collecting information and buying locus. In fact, it is the least impactful one in which I participate, the one with the highest pain-to-gain ratio. If it weren't for the ability to ignore someone, I'd be long gone.

I am pretty sure that every country has rules against counterfeiting. The problem with your statement was that it presumed that the counterfeiters were operating in the US. Given some of the usernames and use of English in play, I think there's reasonable doubt. Do you think it's illegal in China to counterfeit US coinage? If so, it's not being enforced very well, which is the same as having nearly no law. That some of them are testing the waters and trying to improve their offshore counterfeiting of US rarities is quite likely.

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18 hours ago, Kirt said:

However, if an individual knows a coin is counterfeit and asks a forum of experts if it is real, as far as I know no crime has been committed. If you're a smart counterfeiter, why take additional risk of being caught? Why not test your counterfeit out on a forum and see if it passes muster rather than get nabbed right away?

Yes, there is logic to this as well. However, once they post it and are told it's counterfeit, then they are in the position of knowingly violating the law if they try to sell it. Which is why, to me at least, it seems like they put themselves at greater risk by asking first, if their intent is to find out if it's "good enough to pass". Just try to sell it and feign ignorance. Criminals aren't the smartest bunch though. And of course connecting the seller to a forum discussion is probably beyond the interest of law enforcement, but in a major case they might. I'm more inclined to think these kinds of posts are more in the "I struck it rich" category.

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If you have an 1804 dollar, and you did not pay about $1 million or more for it in a major auction, it is fake, period. There were no dollar coins made in 1804. They were reportedly made for "special presentation purposes" (traded by the Mint for pieces they didn't save) in the 1830's. All real ones are accounted for, and they number, I think,15, total. Read a book, why doesn't everyone?

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3 hours ago, JKK said:

Some of us are primarily world and ancient collectors who spend most of our time on here marking as read threads that concern someone's post-1950 damaged coin find. Just because we do not get many reps on here does not mean we are not on other boards, or out collecting in real life. This is not my primary collecting information and buying locus. In fact, it is the least impactful one in which I participate, the one with the highest pain-to-gain ratio. If it weren't for the ability to ignore someone, I'd be long gone.

I am pretty sure that every country has rules against counterfeiting. The problem with your statement was that it presumed that the counterfeiters were operating in the US. Given some of the usernames and use of English in play, I think there's reasonable doubt. Do you think it's illegal in China to counterfeit US coinage? If so, it's not being enforced very well, which is the same as having nearly no law. That some of them are testing the waters and trying to improve their offshore counterfeiting of US rarities is quite likely.

Fair enough. My apologies for extrapolating minimal content to minimal interest (and therefore less experience). Ancients are truly a whole 'nother beast given the patience and skill to collect them.

My statement is flawed in that it presumes counterfeiters are operating in the US. I would argue they may have agents operating in the US, but it's kind of moot.

Just like most other countries it is illegal to counterfeit US currency in China; it's illegal to counterfeit any currency not just the RMB. For sleeping assistance, here is the relevant part of the Criminal Law of the People's Republic of China: Section IV: Crimes of Disrupting the Order of Financial Administration. Do I think that they're as keen on going after US currency counterfeiters as someone cranking out fake RMB? Heck no. However, the 2012 anti-corruption initiative is definitely putting pressure on lots of people who have literally gotten away with stuff by paying government officials to look the other way; one can argue if it's truly an anti-corruption drive or a political agenda disguised as one. The net result is lots of people tattling on one another and people getting very nervous about getting caught doing anything wrong. I still think it makes sense for someone in China to test the waters to see what they can get away with, or, as you say, to improve their skill at their chosen "trade." It's lower-risk to do so in forums than on e-commerce platforms, especially in China given the connections between the major platforms and the government.

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Don't get me started on China generally. It won't be pretty, I promise. The Industry Council for Tangible Assets had a non-competitive exhibit at Rosemont, IL last August. The idea was to see which coins displayed were fake, including ones in serial numbered holders, with hologram features, from gold bullion companies. Here's the thing - several HUNDRED coins were in the display, and EACH AND EVERY ONE WAS FAKE. There wasn't a real one among them. And a room full of some of best experts in the field couldn't tell, in far too many cases. Counterfeiting is out of control, particularly on the Internet.

And yes, China is responsible for the lion's share of it.

Edited by VKurtB
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3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

All real ones are accounted for, and they number, I think,15, total. Read a book, why doesn't everyone?

Well in 1961 people said the same thing, only at that time the number was 14.  Then in 1962 the King of Siam set showed up.  There are some records on the production of the Class I coins and we have a pretty good handle on them, but the Class II/Class III coins were clandestine, we have NO records on how many of those may have been made.  Today we know that there are at least 7 of them, but we have no way to prove that an 8th isn't out there somewhere.  And from time to time an extremely rare coin does come out of the woodwork.  I can recall since I started collecting, two 1804 dollars (the stolen duPont coins), the fourth and fifth 1873 CC no arrows quarters, the fourth 1853 O no arrows and rays half (first new specimen in 108 years), the 14th silver center cent, the 4th 1854 S half eagle (DuPonts coin is still missing), the 1866 no motto quarter, half, and dollar stolen from DuPont in 1967, the fifth 1913 V nickel, an 1870 S dollar, and of course the 1870 S half dime and a MS Continental dollar.  I am sure there have been others. (If you include world coins I know of several others.)  Someday I fully expect that the 1870 S quarter will be discovered.

You can never know for sure that everything has been discovered.

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How can you know it is not a trial coin if you never seen it before?Did you consider that is undiscovered coin yet?To check the coin you must have it in your hand to check  there any marks around the coin.Silver(C)Gold(A)What about rotations areas,it is visible.

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21 hours ago, Just Bob said:

It is not a "trial coin." It is a counterfeit.

Is this penny fake too?The weight 9.00gr,wide rim,180 border teeth,the letters of One Penny nearly contact the rim.Red toning.No waves.

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62308-r.png.0783e7db21dfdd4ec939626fd87ec718.png

Edited by OUTCAST
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53 minutes ago, OUTCAST said:

Is this penny fake too?

 

I can't see about your coin anything that immediately jumps out at me and screams "fake," but I know very little about Great Britain coinage. I do, however, know enough about Draped Bust dollars to see that the OP's coin is clearly a fake.

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Wait, you COUNTED the denticles??? I bow to your superior patience. Here's the thing, @OUTCAST, there's nothing all that noteworthy about a 1906 (it is not fully visible, but it looks like an '06) penny. The other piece is notorious as one the most often faked ultra-rarities in the world. You penny is a wee bit underweight. 9.4g is the expected weight.

Edited by VKurtB
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