History&Coins Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Sometime around 1982 I bought a 1909-P $10 Indian at a local coin show in New Jersey. About 10 years later I was buying type coins for my US collection and I showed the coin to a major dealer: Clark A. Samuelson of US Coins. I bought quite a few coins from Clark and he told me that my $10 Indian was definitely an Omega counterfeit. Clark passed away since then and I don't have the 1981 dealer contact. I've looked at some posts others have made about counterfeit $10 golds and looked at mine again. It has some characteristics of a good coin. It has 46 stars on the edge (correct for the 1907-1911 issues), the edge design was applied with 3 partitions (also correct) breaking at 6:00, 10:00, 2:00 (measured from the reverse), or 12:00, 4:00, 8:00 (obv). The weight according to a very good analytical balance (ohaus) was 16.754g although I think the balance is a little hi & needs calibration. The correct weight is 16.718g although .001 gram accuracy is difficult to get even with the wind shield. Poor photographs follow. I took at least 15 photos with a Sony NEX6, set to manual focus (auto-focus is hopeless) to get these but I can do better as I also have a photo camera mount. These were done by hand. A diagnostic of the Omega counterfeits is an Omega symbol in one of the letters of "Liberty" often the "R". This coin has something there but even looking at it with a German 9X hastings triplet I can't pick out any Omega symbol. Also every slabbed 1909 Indian in 63 or 64 grades I looked at from HA had "not a completely clear field" inside the R of Liberty: similar to mine. So is this an Omega counterfeit? Is it a regular counterfeit? In answer to the obvious, yes I do have "a few" $10 golds unslabbed, some bought from Stack's auctions back in the 80's before anyone heard of slabbing coins. Others were bought at coin shops in the NE back in the days. If interested I can try to get better photos of this 1909 Indian $10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I have heard rumors about Omega counterfeits of other coins, but I have no confirmation on them. He was best know for fake high relief 1907 double eagles withthe symbol e-in the eagles talon, and 1882 three dollar gold pieces withthe symbol in the loop of the R in LIBERTY. I can't say if he ever actually counterfeited other items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History&Coins Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 7 hours ago, Conder101 said: I can't say if he ever actually counterfeited other items. If you Google Omega counterfeit coins, you'll see an ANA article which says: "He made some ten dollar coins, as well, and 1910, 1913 and 1926 coins of this series, the symbol is also in the Omega. The Omega Man was a very successful counterfeiter and has made hundreds of coins, some of which have probably not been found...." The user comment on that article about "a 1909 $10 Indian bought a long time ago" is my post. Merely out of curiosity; how can you be a "Total Newbie" with 8,360 posts? I tend to be a slow learner too so it's not completely unexpected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 (edited) On 11/18/2019 at 9:00 AM, History&Coins said: Merely out of curiosity; how can you be a "Total Newbie" with 8,360 posts? You'd have to ask the software that runs the board. It has had me as a "total newbie" since the last major software upgrade. I'm actually one of the longest active members on the forum, coming up on 18 years. I was the 99th person to join the forum. In contrast you were #38201 Edited November 20, 2019 by Conder101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numismatic, A.A.S. Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 On 11/18/2019 at 12:27 AM, Conder101 said: I have heard rumors about Omega counterfeits of other coins, but I have no confirmation on them. He was best know for fake high relief 1907 double eagles withthe symbol e-in the eagles talon, and 1882 three dollar gold pieces withthe symbol in the loop of the R in LIBERTY. I can't say if he ever actually counterfeited other items. That's exactly what I learned and subsequently I wasn't sure about the talon...thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 On 11/18/2019 at 9:00 AM, History&Coins said: If you Google Omega counterfeit coins, you'll see an ANA article which says: "He made some ten dollar coins, as well, and 1910, 1913 and 1926 coins of this series, the symbol is also in the Omega. The Omega Man was a very successful counterfeiter and has made hundreds of coins, some of which have probably not been found...." The user comment on that article about "a 1909 $10 Indian bought a long time ago" is my post. Merely out of curiosity; how can you be a "Total Newbie" with 8,360 posts? I tend to be a slow learner too so it's not completely unexpected. This is pure speculation made by folks who were not involved with the identification of the "Omega" coins. ONLY 2 have ever been found with the actual sign; however, some counterfeit coins around that time also appeared with the "wormy tool marks" associated with the $20 fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 On 11/17/2019 at 11:44 PM, History&Coins said: Sometime around 1982 I bought a 1909-P $10 Indian at a local coin show in New Jersey. About 10 years later I was buying type coins for my US collection and I showed the coin to a major dealer: Clark A. Samuelson of US Coins. I bought quite a few coins from Clark and he told me that my $10 Indian was definitely an Omega counterfeit. Clark passed away since then and I don't have the 1981 dealer contact. I've looked at some posts others have made about counterfeit $10 golds and looked at mine again. It has some characteristics of a good coin. It has 46 stars on the edge (correct for the 1907-1911 issues), the edge design was applied with 3 partitions (also correct) breaking at 6:00, 10:00, 2:00 (measured from the reverse), or 12:00, 4:00, 8:00 (obv). The weight according to a very good analytical balance (ohaus) was 16.754g although I think the balance is a little hi & needs calibration. The correct weight is 16.718g although .001 gram accuracy is difficult to get even with the wind shield. Poor photographs follow. I took at least 15 photos with a Sony NEX6, set to manual focus (auto-focus is hopeless) to get these but I can do better as I also have a photo camera mount. These were done by hand. A diagnostic of the Omega counterfeits is an Omega symbol in one of the letters of "Liberty" often the "R". This coin has something there but even looking at it with a German 9X hastings triplet I can't pick out any Omega symbol. Also every slabbed 1909 Indian in 63 or 64 grades I looked at from HA had "not a completely clear field" inside the R of Liberty: similar to mine. So is this an Omega counterfeit? Is it a regular counterfeit? In answer to the obvious, yes I do have "a few" $10 golds unslabbed, some bought from Stack's auctions back in the 80's before anyone heard of slabbing coins. Others were bought at coin shops in the NE back in the days. If interested I can try to get better photos of this 1909 Indian $10. If I were you, I would have your coin authenticated by NGC. The mark the dealer told you about in the "R" of "Liberty" is a hub characteristic that is ON VIRTUALLY ALL THE $10 Indians! LOL. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 There's a detailed "explanation" of who was really behind the Omega Counterfeits on the CU thread. Basically, a guy says that the Mafia was behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 Hey, does anybody have the ORIGINAL thread on the Omega Man from the CU forums ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/10583/omega-counterfeit/ https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/3033/Counterfeit-1882-three-dollar/ Erasing any doubt that this is a fake is the Omega symbol (Ω), which is embedded into the coin's design inside the eagle’s claw on the reverse. This identifies this coin as a counterfeit that was produced by the so-called “Omega Man” several decades ago. The counterfeiter (or counterfeiters) who produced this coin also created fakes of the Ten-Dollar Gold Eagle and Three-Dollar Gold denominations, hiding the Omega symbol in the 'R' within the word LIBERTY on the obverse. To learn more about one of these counterfeits, click here. The Omega Man was never caught and remains an enigma today. They were responsible for creating thousands of fake coins, but they must have had considerable resources because the counterfeits are skillfully executed and made of gold. The fact that the counterfeiter “signed” their work with a symbol has caused a great deal of speculation about who made them — with the possibilities including an artistic genius and a hostile foreign government. -------This is some information from the NGC website. They only listed the 1912 and 1915 $10 gold on their list of counterfeits. Being "Omega Man" started with the 1907 SG Double Eagle, it is of course possible that a 1909 $10 gold could have been one of the fakes made and possibly not yet discovered as such. It is difficult sometimes to ascertain if a coin is counterfeit from just photos, but I would say in the case of your coin, better photos well cropped as well as closeups of the R would be necessary to obtain a better idea of what we are looking at and dealing with. The NGC article states that "Omega Man" did use a proper alloy and apparently had the means to create well struck fakes so some general closeups may be needed to see if there is any withstanding markings that should not be there. It is possible we may not be able to give you a correct opinion at all from such photos and a judgment might only be able to be made with an examination with the coin in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 On 11/19/2019 at 11:13 PM, Conder101 said: You'd have to ask the software that runs the board. It has had me as a "total newbie" since the last major software upgrade. I'm actually one of the longest active members on the forum, coming up on 18 years. I was the 99th person to join the forum. In contrast you were #38201 [I am painfully aware this is an ancient thread..First, congratulations on your elevation to member from newbie. FYI: While I cannot account for the discrepancy, the First Member was Braddick who EOD on January 28, 2002, on what may have been Mark Feld's first post and is still active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted November 26, 2023 Share Posted November 26, 2023 One way to settle matters like this apparent trick, right quick, is to establish our own version of the U.K.'s "Trial of the Pyx," described as a judicial ceremony comprised of metallurgical assayers convened to insure Royal Mint products conform to their dimensional and fineness specifications. Unsolicited entirely gratuitous editorial comment... I readily admit I have bupkes to substantiate the following admittedly baseless assertion, but my feeling is this Omega Man is a tag artist, no different from Taki 183 or Sane Smith. The coins in question are genuine and merely embellished with the artist's "Omega Man Was Here"-mark. Career Counterfeiters do not feel compelled to distinguish their work from the works of others. Unlike a professional engraver who leaves his initials on a work he created, Omega Man is content to simply leave his mark to confirm his existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
