Omega Counterfeit $10 Indian ?
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Sometime around 1982 I bought a 1909-P $10 Indian at a local coin show in New Jersey.  About 10 years later I was buying type coins for my US collection and I showed the coin to a major dealer: Clark A. Samuelson of US Coins.  I bought quite a few coins from Clark and he told me that my $10 Indian was definitely an Omega counterfeit.  Clark passed away since then and I don't have the 1981 dealer contact.  I've looked at some posts others have made about counterfeit $10 golds and looked at mine again.

It has some characteristics of a good coin.  It has 46 stars on the edge (correct for the 1907-1911 issues), the edge design was applied with 3 partitions (also correct) breaking at 6:00, 10:00, 2:00 (measured from the reverse), or 12:00, 4:00, 8:00 (obv).  The weight according to a very good analytical balance (ohaus)  was 16.754g although I think the balance is a little hi & needs calibration.  The correct weight is 16.718g although .001 gram accuracy is difficult to get even with the wind shield.

Poor photographs follow.  I took at least 15 photos with a Sony NEX6, set to manual focus (auto-focus is hopeless) to get these but I can do better as I also have a photo camera mount.  These were done by hand.

A diagnostic of the Omega counterfeits is an Omega symbol in one of the letters of "Liberty" often the "R".  This coin has something there but even looking at it with a German 9X hastings triplet I can't pick out any Omega symbol.  Also every slabbed 1909 Indian in 63 or 64 grades I looked at from HA had "not a completely clear field" inside the R of Liberty: similar to mine.

So is this an Omega counterfeit?  Is it a regular counterfeit?  In answer to the obvious, yes I do have "a few" $10 golds unslabbed, some bought from Stack's auctions back in the 80's before anyone heard of slabbing coins.  Others were bought at coin shops in the NE back in the days.  If interested I can try to get better photos of this 1909 Indian $10.

USA_10D_1909P_both_2000px.jpg

USA_10D_1909P_edge_9x600.jpg

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I have heard rumors about Omega counterfeits of other coins, but I have no confirmation on them.  He was best know for fake high relief 1907 double eagles withthe symbol e-in the eagles talon, and 1882 three dollar gold pieces withthe symbol in the loop of the R in LIBERTY.  I can't say if he ever actually counterfeited other items.

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7 hours ago, Conder101 said:

 I can't say if he ever actually counterfeited other items.

If you Google Omega counterfeit coins, you'll see an ANA article which says:

"He made some ten dollar coins, as well, and 1910, 1913 and 1926 coins of this series, the symbol is also in the Omega.    The Omega Man was a very successful counterfeiter and has made hundreds of coins, some of which have probably not been found...."

The user comment on that article about "a 1909 $10 Indian bought a long time ago" is my post.  Merely out of curiosity; how can you be a "Total Newbie" with 8,360 posts?  I tend to be a slow learner too so it's not completely unexpected.

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On 11/18/2019 at 9:00 AM, History&Coins said:

Merely out of curiosity; how can you be a "Total Newbie" with 8,360 posts?

You'd have to ask the software that runs the board.  It has had me as a "total newbie" since the last major software upgrade.  I'm actually one of the longest active members on the forum, coming up on 18 years.  I was the 99th person to join the forum.  In contrast you were #38201

Edited by Conder101

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On 11/18/2019 at 12:27 AM, Conder101 said:

I have heard rumors about Omega counterfeits of other coins, but I have no confirmation on them.  He was best know for fake high relief 1907 double eagles withthe symbol e-in the eagles talon, and 1882 three dollar gold pieces withthe symbol in the loop of the R in LIBERTY.  I can't say if he ever actually counterfeited other items.

That's exactly what I learned and subsequently I wasn't sure about the talon...thanks...

 

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On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 9:00 AM, History&Coins said:

If you Google Omega counterfeit coins, you'll see an ANA article which says:

"He made some ten dollar coins, as well, and 1910, 1913 and 1926 coins of this series, the symbol is also in the Omega.    The Omega Man was a very successful counterfeiter and has made hundreds of coins, some of which have probably not been found...."

The user comment on that article about "a 1909 $10 Indian bought a long time ago" is my post.  Merely out of curiosity; how can you be a "Total Newbie" with 8,360 posts?  I tend to be a slow learner too so it's not completely unexpected.

 

This is pure speculation made by folks who were not involved with the identification of the "Omega" coins.  ONLY 2 have ever been found with the actual sign; however, some counterfeit coins around that time also appeared with the "wormy tool marks" associated with the $20 fake.      

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On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 11:44 PM, History&Coins said:

Sometime around 1982 I bought a 1909-P $10 Indian at a local coin show in New Jersey.  About 10 years later I was buying type coins for my US collection and I showed the coin to a major dealer: Clark A. Samuelson of US Coins.  I bought quite a few coins from Clark and he told me that my $10 Indian was definitely an Omega counterfeit.  Clark passed away since then and I don't have the 1981 dealer contact.  I've looked at some posts others have made about counterfeit $10 golds and looked at mine again.

It has some characteristics of a good coin.  It has 46 stars on the edge (correct for the 1907-1911 issues), the edge design was applied with 3 partitions (also correct) breaking at 6:00, 10:00, 2:00 (measured from the reverse), or 12:00, 4:00, 8:00 (obv).  The weight according to a very good analytical balance (ohaus)  was 16.754g although I think the balance is a little hi & needs calibration.  The correct weight is 16.718g although .001 gram accuracy is difficult to get even with the wind shield.

Poor photographs follow.  I took at least 15 photos with a Sony NEX6, set to manual focus (auto-focus is hopeless) to get these but I can do better as I also have a photo camera mount.  These were done by hand.

A diagnostic of the Omega counterfeits is an Omega symbol in one of the letters of "Liberty" often the "R".  This coin has something there but even looking at it with a German 9X hastings triplet I can't pick out any Omega symbol.  Also every slabbed 1909 Indian in 63 or 64 grades I looked at from HA had "not a completely clear field" inside the R of Liberty: similar to mine.

So is this an Omega counterfeit?  Is it a regular counterfeit?  In answer to the obvious, yes I do have "a few" $10 golds unslabbed, some bought from Stack's auctions back in the 80's before anyone heard of slabbing coins.  Others were bought at coin shops in the NE back in the days.  If interested I can try to get better photos of this 1909 Indian $10.

USA_10D_1909P_both_2000px.jpg

USA_10D_1909P_edge_9x600.jpg

If I were you, I would have your coin authenticated by NGC.  The mark the dealer told you about in the "R" of "Liberty" is a hub characteristic that is ON VIRTUALLY ALL THE $10 Indians!  LOL.

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There's a detailed "explanation" of who was really behind the Omega Counterfeits on the CU thread.  Basically, a guy says that the Mafia was behind it.

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