Newer pennies from 2013 to 2019 1 1

[Tridmn]

All with best I can see or tell is ddr. Need some help with these please. That's as much as they will allow me to put on here. Not looking at the dates. Just the "one cent" on reverse. Camera was pointing straight down. So no light effects.

[VKurtB]

TEXTBOOK example of strike doubling. No... Seriously ... Keep these pictures for when you publish a textbook on this subject.

[Tridmn]

So I guess what you are saying is no ddr then correct?

[Tridmn]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

TEXTBOOK example of strike doubling. No... Seriously ... Keep these pictures for when you publish a textbook on this subject.

Better yet why dont you write a book and then I will read it. No point in being rude. So keep quiet unless you can be polite and answer . Otherwise dont answer at all. 

[VKurtB]

9 hours ago, Tridmn said:

So I guess what you are saying is no ddr then correct?

Yes,  I am saying ABSOLUTELY no DDR. In fact, using a single squeeze method as they have been in recent years, there SHOULD BE NO DDR or DDO coins any more. The thing that caused most of them isn't even DONE any more.

[Greenstang]

That is a nice example of Triple MD were the die bounced twice during the strike. No premium but nice to keep as a Novelty coin.

Yes,  I am saying ABSOLUTELY no DDR. In fact, using a single squeeze method as they have been in recent years, there SHOULD BE NO DDR or DDO coins any more. The thing that caused most of them isn't even DONE any more.

From Wexlers website on error coins.

"When the Mint introduced the single-squeeze hubbing presses on a trial basis around 1985, and then to produce working dies at Denver and Philadelphia in 1996 and 1997, it had hoped to eliminate doubling produced during the hubbing process.  Unfortunately for the Mint, this did not result and minor doubled dies are actually being produced more frequently on the new single-squeeze hubbing presses than they were on the older multiple-squeeze hubbing presses."

What there is not is DD occurring near the edges of the coin. Because of the nature of single hubbing, DD only occurs near the centre of the coin.

 

[VKurtB]

9 minutes ago, Greenstang said:

That is a nice example of Triple MD were the die bounced twice during the strike. No premium but nice to keep as a Novelty coin.

Yes,  I am saying ABSOLUTELY no DDR. In fact, using a single squeeze method as they have been in recent years, there SHOULD BE NO DDR or DDO coins any more. The thing that caused most of them isn't even DONE any more.

From Wexlers website on error coins.

"When the Mint introduced the single-squeeze hubbing presses on a trial basis around 1985, and then to produce working dies at Denver and Philadelphia in 1996 and 1997, it had hoped to eliminate doubling produced during the hubbing process.  Unfortunately for the Mint, this did not result and minor doubled dies are actually being produced more frequently on the new single-squeeze hubbing presses than they were on the older multiple-squeeze hubbing presses."

What there is not is DD occurring near the edges of the coin. Because of the nature of single hubbing, DD only occurs near the centre of the coin.

 

Yes, this! Exactly as I have explained this morning to Tridmn in a private message too long for many here to care to read. And as I also said in that message, the REASON why they're limited to the center is that there is where the squeeze STARTS and a die to hub connection CAN get disturbed by a bump or a twist, yielding things like extra ears and fingers (2009 cents). Once the squeeze is well under way and approaching the edges, the interlock is too secure to allow such slippages or twists to occur.

[Tridmn]

21 hours ago, VKurtB said:

TEXTBOOK example of strike doubling. No... Seriously ... Keep these pictures for when you publish a textbook on this 

I did look to the middle of the coin. Stayed away from the edge. As was explained in an earlier conversation with me. Hence only looking at the "one cent" and surrounding areas.

[KarenHolcomb]

Ok. Here's sometbing I was told that helped me. And I suck at DD's of letters and numbers but am pretty great t spotting them on design. So...you at you aren't looking at the date but the ONE CENT has an identical look as the date. That's 1. 2, a DD isn't going to occur on both sides of anything, not a letter, number, or design. So if you see what appears to be doubling on in more than one direction it is MD. No exceptions. 

 

Idk how you guys can trash Wexler in onwee post and then quote him in another. Make up your minds. Either he is a Numismatic God or he isn't. Can't have it both ways. 

 

@Tridmn, my first few weeks in the hobby, I often wasn't happy with what I was told about my abfab coin I was sure was something and being told it wasn't really gound my gears. And people were gettimg so mean with me that I really cried sometimes.  2 years later I was looking through my coins for ones I hadn't photographed and came across so many from that 1st 6 months or so the I had labeled with the most ridiculous errors you'd ever want hear about. DDBC= Doubled Die Both Collar! Yeah, for real. And some of the most beat up coins that I had labeled VF 25 and put them into a flip and into my binder because it had a small break on the bottom of Washington's bust. I knew then why the 'experts' were mean to me. It was because I was an . I didn't want to hear what they had to say, yet I still was asking. Nowadays I do always try to be nice and remember all my DDBC's and DB's on a VF coin. Some people have been doing this for so long they can't remember or didn't even look for errors as a kid when they started, but only for beautiful coins. But I bet if you started asking why something is damage or why it is MD and not DD, instead of getting frustrated and lashing out, you will become a much better Numismatist all the way around. Plus when you ask why it gets the experts thinking too and that's always a good thing. 

Happy Hunting to us all.

[Tridmn]

Could I add 1 more pic to this whole thing and it's not necessarily just the "one cent" that caught my eye. It's the initials too. Is it the same for them as well? 

[Just Bob]

Everything that I see on all coins appears to be machine/strike doubling.

[Tridmn]

That's why I ask. They just looked weird. So figured I would ask about them too.

[Conder101]

On 8/31/2019 at 12:33 AM, KarenHolcomb said:

So if you see what appears to be doubling on in more than one direction it is MD. No exceptions. 

It would also be very unusual to see machine doubling in different directions on the same feature.  But die deterioration crumbling can occure on both sides of a letter of feature.  It would look very similar to the old Longacre doubling back on th 19th century coins.

[KarenHolcomb]

Conder, that's a term I've not heard before, but I think I can picture it in my head. Wiuld that be the same as how the 'Snow on the Roof' is on the Homestead Quarter? I think it's the Homestead.

[VKurtB]

On 8/31/2019 at 12:33 AM, KarenHolcomb said:

Idk how you guys can trash Wexler in onwee post and then quote him in another. Make up your minds. Either he is a Numismatic God or he isn't. Can't have it both ways. 

Actually, Karen, as it pertains to Wexler, I very much think I CAN have it both ways. He HAS DONE more than any other individual to catalog varieties, no dispute. My, and a sizable chunk of the hobby's, problem with Wexler is that he has taken a good thing way too far. There are what many, including me, believe are "phantom varieties" among his numbered pieces. Now why would that be? Simple. It's a matter of being "overly invested" in a concept or idea, to the point where one starts thinking and seeing with one's "wannahappen". It's the same thing with guys who get overly invested about anything, like UFO sightings. Just because some of their sightings are BS, that doesn't mean he didn't once see something noteworthy.

[Crawtomatic]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Actually, Karen, as it pertains to Wexler, I very much think I CAN have it both ways. He HAS DONE more than any other individual to catalog varieties, no dispute. My, and a sizable chunk of the hobby's, problem with Wexler is that he has taken a good thing way too far. There are what many, including me, believe are "phantom varieties" among his numbered pieces. Now why would that be? Simple. It's a matter of being "overly invested" in a concept or idea, to the point where one starts thinking and seeing with one's "wannahappen". It's the same thing with guys who get overly invested about anything, like UFO sightings. Just because some of their sightings are BS, that doesn't mean he didn't once see something noteworthy.

Good point.  Even Breen is subject to certain criticisms in regard to cent varieties.  But being an expert doesn't exclude anybody from questioning, if it did then science would be full of fault.

[VKurtB]

3 minutes ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

Good point.  Even Breen is subject to certain criticisms in regard to cent varieties.  But being an expert doesn't exclude anybody from questioning, if it did then science would be full of fault.

Yes, and of course Breen is subject to a good many, umm, more "personal" criticisms. Don't research it if you don't have a strong stomach. Suffice it to say that by 2019 societal standards, Breen was about as low as human beings get.

[Crawtomatic]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Yes, and of course Breen is subject to a good many, umm, more "personal" criticisms. Don't research it if you don't have a strong stomach. Suffice it to say that by 2019 societal standards, Breen was about as low as human beings get.

Yeah, I totally forgot about that dark corner.  Came across it a week or so ago and meant to remove any pedestal he may be on and boot him out of the memory banks.

[KarenHolcomb]

Ok. Well, I do agree that we shouldn't need a microscope to see extra rocks in Lincoln's Cabin, but someone saw them and they are there. So what are you gonna do, you know?  My biggest objection is that I had never heard a foul about the man until it started to be known about his condition and then all of a sudden nobody seems to have a kind word about him and that sure resembles kicking a man when he's down to me and it's just plain rude and quite disrespectful. You know a man of his stature, or all of us for that matter, hope to go out with the same respect we earned in life and for people to be trashing him now must be a major let down to him after all the time and effort he's put into this hobby. Idk? I've always had a problem with empathy that most folks seem to lack.

Edited September 4, 2019 by KarenHolcomb
I may have went too far. May have.

[Conder101]

Karen, Longacre Doubling is doubling that first appeared on coins designed or hubs modified during the tenure of James Longacre as Chief Engraver of the Mint.  The letter and device punches used had an additional "shoulder" around them.  I believe that this was don as a visual guide to determine when the punch had been driven deep enough into the die.  Once the "shoulder" began appearing the punch was deep enough. (Longacre was a flat plate engraver, not a die sinker.  Although he was a competent artist he got his appointment through political connections and not based on merit as a die sinker.)  The traces of the shoulder should have then been ground off in the polishing and basining of the dies.  Often it was not.  The result was a flat doubling arounf the edge of the letters.  Some time all the way around some times part way but often on opposite sides of adjacent letters.  This is an example

Longacre doubling began to disappear as hubs were modified for the different series of coins after Longacres death.  The last examples are seen on the reverse of the indian head cents at the end of the series.

Die deterioration can also mimic this appearance from the edges of the die "crumbling" at the edges of the letters. such as on this washington quarter.

[KarenHolcomb]

53 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

Karen, Longacre Doubling is doubling that first appeared on coins designed or hubs modified during the tenure of James Longacre as Chief Engraver of the Mint.  The letter and device punches used had an additional "shoulder" around them.  I believe that this was don as a visual guide to determine when the punch had been driven deep enough into the die.  Once the "shoulder" began appearing the punch was deep enough. (Longacre was a flat plate engraver, not a die sinker.  Although he was a competent artist he got his appointment through political connections and not based on merit as a die sinker.)  The traces of the shoulder should have then been ground off in the polishing and basining of the dies.  Often it was not.  The result was a flat doubling arounf the edge of the letters.  Some time all the way around some times part way but often on opposite sides of adjacent letters.  This is an example

Longacre doubling began to disappear as hubs were modified for the different series of coins after Longacres death.  The last examples are seen on the reverse of the indian head cents at the end of the series.

Die deterioration can also mimic this appearance from the edges of the die "crumbling" at the edges of the letters. such as on this washington quarter.

Humph! Interesting. I actually have a Quarter pretty much like this and kept it anyways because it was a better DD than an actual DD. Lol! So if I had a Lincoln Cent that I was unsure of, that almost looks like something has dug a trench around the letters that would be similar to Longacre but would be Die Deterioration?

[VKurtB]

10 hours ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Ok. Well, I do agree that we shouldn't need a microscope to see extra rocks in Lincoln's Cabin, but someone saw them and they are there. So what are you gonna do, you know?  My biggest objection is that I had never heard a foul about the man until it started to be known about his condition and then all of a sudden nobody seems to have a kind word about him and that sure resembles kicking a man when he's down to me and it's just plain rude and quite disrespectful. You know a man of his stature, or all of us for that matter, hope to go out with the same respect we earned in life and for people to be trashing him now must be a major let down to him after all the time and effort he's put into this hobby. Idk? I've always had a problem with empathy that most folks seem to lack.

Karen,

You really DO need to understand that the subject of Wexler generally has long been a wee bit controversial in the "meatspace" division of the hobby. Seemingly EVERYBODY knows "Wexler numbers" online, but when you start to talk to and about "meatspace" collectors, i.e. show going, club attending, live auction attending types, few have even ever HEARD OF Wexler, and many who have, don't have all that much respect for his work. He really is PRIMARILY an online phenomenon. After all, the motto of the "meatspace" division of the hobby IS "buy the book before the coin". Please note that is DOESN'T go "read the website before buying the coin". Books are what are (mostly, not always) respected, and Wexler doesn't publish, other than a few self-publish books with co-authors. A full solid WEEK among the hobby's great names in Chicago, and NOT ONCE did I even hear the name Wexler uttered. He is centered in Quakertown, very near my stomping grounds, and nobody in the HUGE family of coin clubs in his region even seems to know him. He is known for www.doubleddie.com and MANY MANY numismatists don't even READ websites at all. At the Red Rose Coin Club, a hugely active club kind of near to Wexler, half of the members don't even HAVE an email address.

 

Here's a hint: there's STILL a video rental store (DVD's, BluRay, even VHS tapes) still operating PROFITABLY nearby.

Edited September 4, 2019 by VKurtB

[Just Bob]

10 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Karen, Longacre Doubling is doubling that first appeared on coins designed or hubs modified during the tenure of James Longacre as Chief Engraver of the Mint.  The letter and device punches used had an additional "shoulder" around them.  I believe that this was don as a visual guide to determine when the punch had been driven deep enough into the die.  Once the "shoulder" began appearing the punch was deep enough.

 

I have also read that this was done to facilitate metal flow, and to reduce die wear. In your opinion, are either of these claims valid? ( I have no experience in metallurgy, aside from being able to ruin a lawnmower blade.)

Edited September 4, 2019 by Just Bob
can't type

[Conder101]

No I don't think so because why does it only appear on coins designed or modified during Longacres tenure?  If it actually improved metal flow or extended die life I would have expected it to be continued and we would still be seeing it on new dies.  Instead it is seen on some dies but not all, and frankly it LOOKS like it doesn't belong.  No I believe it was an indicator of the proper depth of punching/hubbing, and then an indicator that the die has been ground so that the basining is correct and the die has not been over ground so the final depth of the devices is correct.  If the die shop was rushed dies were not properly finished and the Longacre doubling remained.  And during much of this period the die shop WAS pressed for dies.