1989 D / P Nickel Help Grading 0

[Marquez-Collector]

Hello what would be the closest picture grade of this uncirculated Jefferson Nickel? I would venture into MS 65 or 66? I think I can get 5 Full steps maybe 6. I am not sure how to count the steps. I usually just count the lines across without breaking. 

Sorry For the bad pictures. Let me know if you want better ones. maybe with different lighting. 

[Marquez-Collector]

These Pictures are from the 1989 P nickel. I would venture a better grade. like MS 67?  also Full Steps. on this I would say 6FS. Also would any of these two coins be considered Cameo? 

Thanks. 

[Crawtomatic]

Not Cameo.

1st coin: There's an indentation at 12 o'clock and another directly below the far right column that would prevent any full steps designation.

2nd coin: should qualify for 5 but not 6.

[Marquez-Collector]

 

7 minutes ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

Not Cameo.

1st coin: There's an indentation at 12 o'clock and another directly below the far right column that would prevent any full steps designation.

2nd coin: should qualify for 5 but not 6.

Thank you, I see the breaks now. It helps to get a second pair of eyes. 

Wow not even four steps on the first coin. 

I do notice the break on the lower step on the second coin.

This tells me I need to study the coins better before posting.  

HOw do I distinguish a Cameo from a regular coin?  less scratches and more of a mirrors finish?

~Manuel

[Crawtomatic]

Ya know, it's only a matter of time before us nickel enthusiasts start a new designation for the steps to the left & right of the memorial.  Since those devices are further from the center they're more often less pronounced.  Notice the steps on the left of your bottom coin.  Overall it's a great strike but even so those steps get blurry on the maid's entrance.

I'm 98% certain the cameo effect is only found on proof coins but perhaps a more experienced individual can chime in if it's been seen on business strikes. The term is in relation to the old Victorian era brooches (I believe) generally carved from a soft material like a shell.  It's the contrast between the figure and the background that is important. 

[Marquez-Collector]

1 hour ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

Ya know, it's only a matter of time before us nickel enthusiasts start a new designation for the steps to the left & right of the memorial.

We should call them ME Steps. and anything 4 and above should get designated.

1 hour ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

Overall it's a great strike but even so those steps get blurry on the maid's entrance.

I do love how they come well defined, detailed and crisp on the newer coins, not just the main entrance but the ME side entrance as well. 

1 hour ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

I'm 98% certain the cameo effect is only found on proof coins but perhaps a more experienced individual can chime in if it's been seen on business strikes.

I think you are right, business strikes get a proof like designation? 

[VKurtB]

There have been a precious few business strikes that are cameo, but they would be extraordinarily rare. You need PL fields with frosted devices. Maybe a first strike on a new pair of dies, … maybe. Some 1965-67 SMS coins have cameo designations.

[Marquez-Collector]

8 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Some 1965-67 SMS coins have cameo designations.

I really favor the 1965 SMS over the other two, I think they have better chance of Cameo. IMO They are just better looking coins.Well at least the few I have come across. 

[Just Bob]

19 hours ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

 

I'm 98% certain the cameo effect is only found on proof coins but perhaps a more experienced individual can chime in if it's been seen on business strikes.

The cameo effect is actually seen on quite a few coins. Morgans, in particular are fairly easy to find with cameo contrast. They are usually designated Prooflike, or Deep Prooflike (The term Deep Mirror Prooflike is used  by PCGS and ANACS).

The cameo Designation is reserved for proof, SMS, or specimen strikes.

[Crawtomatic]

 Perfect, thanks @Just Bob!  Now I need to go read up again about how the cameo effect is created.  I can't recall if it's imparted by the planchet and a special treatment it gets or from the die itself.  Though, I'd presume from the planchet.

[Marquez-Collector]

Thank you @Just Bob and that is a beautiful Morgan. 

@CRAWTOMATIC Where can I read up on  Cameo Effect? I don't want to just goolge it. Or would googling it would return good results? 

 

~Manuel 

[Crawtomatic]

@Dukemnm Recently I've been using the search feature on the NGC homepage if it's a word that would have to much interference in a google search.  "Cameo" as a search term on google would return quite a bit of noise.

Found this article on NGC.  Followed by the clear cut explanation of how it occurs.  I guessed wrong, for the record.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6586/learn-grading-cameo-ultra-cameo/

"Frosting in lettering and devices is often achieved by sandblasting the die and then polishing only the fields to a brilliant finish (which are also referred to as mirrored fields). As the dies are used repeatedly to create coins, their ability to produce this effect can fade"

[Crawtomatic]

Now I need to figure out why business strike Morgan's and other business strike coins can show the effect.  Why go through the extra effort on a circulation die to sandblast it and polish the fields?  Unless there's a different cause of the cameo effect when it's a business strike...

edit.  found it.

"The creation of DMPL and PL Morgan Dollars (Buy on eBay) mostly occurs in the production process of the individual dies that are used to strike the coins. Dies were made individually from a so-called master hub with all of the major design elements which are then transferred to the individual dies. These dies are then basined, which is where the prooflike factor comes in. During this process the dies were placed against a zinc receptacle that contained water and fine grind particles that were slowly revolving, continually polishing the die. Depending on the amount of time the die was polished a prooflike or even deep-mirror prooflike die could be produced. Q. David Bowers proposes in his Guide Book of Morgan Silver Dollars that the dies that struck DMPL coins were inadvertently polished for too long, but this is merely a theory that has not been confirmed. It is possible that some dies were polished longer than others on purpose, perhaps to show off the quality and workmanship of the employees at the various mints."

https://morgandollars.net/deep-mirror-prooflike-dmpl-and-prooflike-pl-morgan-dollars/

Edited August 23, 2019 by CRAWTOMATIC
found the answer.

[Marquez-Collector]

51 minutes ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

@Dukemnm Recently I've been using the search feature on the NGC homepage if it's a word that would have to much interference in a google search.  "Cameo" as a search term on google would return quite a bit of noise.

Found this article on NGC.  Followed by the clear cut explanation of how it occurs.  I guessed wrong, for the record.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/6586/learn-grading-cameo-ultra-cameo/

"Frosting in lettering and devices is often achieved by sandblasting the die and then polishing only the fields to a brilliant finish (which are also referred to as mirrored fields). As the dies are used repeatedly to create coins, their ability to produce this effect can fade"

Thank you Thank you. 

49 minutes ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

It is possible that some dies were polished longer than others on purpose, perhaps to show off the quality and workmanship of the employees at the various mints."

This makes sense to me.  

~Manuel 

[Marquez-Collector]

Ok @CRAWTOMATIC 

So, a Cameo coin would have to have a frosty finish on the raised areas, including the lettering,  and a mirror like finish on the recessed. Could it be Cameo if all the areas are mirror like? 

Tanks, 

~Manuel 

[Crawtomatic]

30 minutes ago, Dukemnm said:

Ok @CRAWTOMATIC 

So, a Cameo coin would have to have a frosty finish on the raised areas, including the lettering,  and a mirror like finish on the recessed. Could it be Cameo if all the areas are mirror like? 

Tanks, 

~Manuel 

I'll probably use the wrong terminology so I'll defer.

I've only been absorbing, reading, viewing coins in every free moment for 4 years now.  Currently chasing perfection on business strikes for Buffalo nickels and Eisenhower Dollars so those are the type coins I'm learning the intricacies of.  I looked at proofs a bit last year but discerning between a 69 and a 70 is a shoot at this point to my unseasoned eye so I shelved it for future studies.  I've been on buffalo's and Ike's for about 6 months now so I'm slowly starting to focus in on Washington quarters and Liberty nickels (a very underappreciated type coin IMO, probably because circulated versions tend to look like hot garbage compared to an uncirculated).

[Just Bob]

1 hour ago, Dukemnm said:

Ok @CRAWTOMATIC 

So, a Cameo coin would have to have a frosty finish on the raised areas, including the lettering,  and a mirror like finish on the recessed. Could it be Cameo if all the areas are mirror like? 

Tanks, 

~Manuel 

If all of the areas of a proof coin are mirrored, it is called a brilliant proof.

[Marquez-Collector]

15 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

If all of the areas of a proof coin are mirrored, it is called a brilliant proof.

Thank you Bob. 

 

44 minutes ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

Washington quarters and Liberty nickels

I Have some of both and I think Washington Quarters are just beautiful uncirculated. and I find it interesting the amount of use they get during circulation. can you imagine a 1970s quarter,the travels? has it reached other countries and came back and possibly is the one you are holding? how many coin flips has it gone through, how many vending machines has it survived, washing machines, etc. I don't know if it is true or I have not looked it up, but i think the most used coin in History of US might have been the Washington Quarter and perhaps the nickel coming in second. These are just my rambling now.