Can somebody identify this for me? 1 1

[KarenHolcomb]

Hey, I wonder if somebody can identify this for me. Or tell me if it is even a coin at all. I found it and have Google Lensed it and come up most often with Mughal, but can't find anything just like it. Thanks a bunch.

[KarenHolcomb]

Got it! Thanks.

[thebeav]

What was it ?

[KarenHolcomb]

15 hours ago, thebeav said:

What was it ?

Yeah, I thought I had it, but I can't find any that go back as far. I thought it was a Moraccan coin from 1820-1821 and I still think it is from that date but whatever was Morocco before it was Morocco. I have looked at 10,000 photos and can't find one prior to ah1261. So idk yet.

[JKK]

18 minutes ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Yeah, I thought I had it, but I can't find any that go back as far. I thought it was a Moraccan coin from 1820-1821 and I still think it is from that date but whatever was Morocco before it was Morocco. I have looked at 10,000 photos and can't find one prior to ah1261. So idk yet.

I would figure it out for you but without weight and diameter it is problematic.

[KarenHolcomb]

1 hour ago, JKK said:

I would figure it out for you but without weight and diameter it is problematic.

I don't have a way to get the diameter. Do you know what Morocco was before it was Morocco?

17 hours ago, thebeav said:

What was it ?

Yeah, I thought I had it, but I can't find any that go back as far. I thought it was a Moraccan coin from 1820-1821 and I still think it is from that date but whatever was Morocco before it was Morocco. I have looked at 10,000 photos and can't find one prior to ah1261. So idk yet.

[KarenHolcomb]

My good luck charm walk in and I think this is the same but a different year? So it wouldn't be a Fas or whatever.

[thebeav]

Yes,it sure looks like that guy........

[KarenHolcomb]

I think so. Here they are side by side. I was looking for a Falus Fas but it is a Dirham. Makes all the difference, I suppose.

@JKK?

[KarenHolcomb]

On 8/1/2019 at 1:36 PM, JKK said:

I would figure it out for you but without weight and diameter it is problematic.

Hey JKK. I just ordered a new scope that ia suppoed to do measurements too.i am really having a time with this coin. I am beginning to think it is just another fake and nobody wants to tell me. Do you think maybe the 1263 was added later as a kind of counter stamp? That one 1268 I found on eBay has been the only other one I've found at all and I can't even find it now. You wouldn't have any suggestions of some other forum I could post it in?

[Trevor40]

It looks like Egyptian hieroglyphs, I have some ancients, but more resembles a mixture of Mongolian/Chinese. Very similar. My best guess would be when Greek had greater influence on those areas. I’ll find it. Very nice !!!

[JKK]

4 hours ago, KarenHolcomb said:

You wouldn't have any suggestions of some other forum I could post it in?

Until you are willing to measure and weigh it, I don't recommend that. Those are basic data and it is needlessly frustrating to research such coins without them.

[Trevor40]

It’s definitely on those sites in Russia & they’re about as bad as the Chinese at the fakes. I’ll try to find but with ancients it’s difficult because they snipped them and struck them in evenly etc. I’m knee deep in my grandma’s estate coins & will help definitely find it soon.

[Trevor40]

Karen, this should help.... & btw the area you’re thinking of is between Pakistan & India.

 

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic9723.html

 

God Bless

[KarenHolcomb]

5 hours ago, Trevor40 said:

It looks like Egyptian hieroglyphs, I have some ancients, but more resembles a mixture of Mongolian/Chinese. Very similar. My best guess would be when Greek had greater influence on those areas. I’ll find it. Very nice !!!

I looked at a buttload of No Mongolians also. Thank you for the info. Everything will get me closer.

[KarenHolcomb]

3 hours ago, JKK said:

Until you are willing to measure and weigh it, I don't recommend that. Those are basic data and it is needlessly frustrating to research such coins without them.

Ok. Someo e already said my new scope is useless but it is suppose to measure too. We shall see. I can tell you that it weighs in at 1.47gms and basically 3/4 ofan inch or close to 19mm.

[KarenHolcomb]

3 hours ago, Trevor40 said:

It’s definitely on those sites in Russia & they’re about as bad as the Chinese at the fakes. I’ll try to find but with ancients it’s difficult because they snipped them and struck them in evenly etc. I’m knee deep in my grandma’s estate coins & will help definitely find it soon.

Ima keep at it. But a person can only look at so many at a time before going crosseyed. Lol

[JKK]

5 hours ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Ok. Someo e already said my new scope is useless but it is suppose to measure too. We shall see. I can tell you that it weighs in at 1.47gms and basically 3/4 ofan inch or close to 19mm.

The weight is correct for a Moroccan 4th Standard dirham of the Moulay Abd'al-Rahman period. Fez Hazrat and Marrakesh are possible mints. I see the zarb/zuriba on the mint side, and the legible writing below it is consistent with coins attributed to Marrakesh. I can't speak to its authenticity, but rest assured there is minimal Greek influence and zero Mongolian. There is no good reason to believe that the given date, AH 1263, is a counterstamp.

[KarenHolcomb]

1 hour ago, JKK said:

The weight is correct for a Moroccan 4th Standard dirham of the Moulay Abd'al-Rahman period. Fez Hazrat and Marrakesh are possible mints. I see the zarb/zuriba on the mint side, and the legible writing below it is consistent with coins attributed to Marrakesh. I can't speak to its authenticity, but rest assured there is minimal Greek influence and zero Mongolian. There is no good reason to believe that the given date, AH 1263, is a counterstamp.

Ok. Thanks. See, I thought Morocco and originally was calling it a Falus Fas or something similar. It's just that other than the one sort of match I did find was a Dirham so I figured that was correct but be darned if I could find another like it. I have seriously put in the effort too, as must be evident by my turning to the Mongols and others. I thought perhaps it was counter stamped for no other reason than that it must be fake and idk why else. Just grasping, I suppose.This information along with the links above can surely get me to my destination. I did manage to figure out the year on my own, so that's something. If indeed I even got that right. Thanks a bunch! I'm going to get on it again as soon as the VA answers their phone. Grrr...

[Trevor40]

Karen, I apologize, I after we talked I ate a power bar & was going to break & woke to the smell of my wife cooking. I’ve been overdoing it lately. I’m glad JKK could help & by influence of Mongolia and Greek, with this date both those countries controlled the known world at some point. I have many small Roman coins with the same like mixture of gibberish and actual language, but that was just at glance and first guess. The website I gave you had your exact coin but in 1299. I’m happy you figured it out, I’m the same way about tracing something. I have some ani isn’t coins that some archaeologists can’t tell me anything about them, though I know they’re real. I lived in the Ukraine for 6 years as a child MK & have many coins with that writing & somehow the Russian translators we had at the time explained the old slavics or “huahall” as they called them and the mixture of cultures Pakistani and Indian Sand--script. This the crazy maze looking designs. Some of these are real, but I have truly legit ancients from their sources that do not look as well as some on those sights and your silver coin... sorry, thats why I warned you. Silver did not last for trade so they usually during this time used brass etc. the Chinese actually had to shape the coins with the round brass coins and a square in the middle because it was sacredly how the ancients thought the world looked like & finally trade ensued. Any who, I had the chance as a Ukrainian MK child to buy an ancient gold coin with this type writing & I used my Russian friend because if they knew you were Americann the price automatically changed somehow lol. It was $20 & I begged my parents for it at the time, but little did I know we were surviving on $20 a month because of the economy & time period. Thus, I jokingly bring up to my parents the price I find on these coins and back then gold and silver were rarely used except by kings, rulers, & dignitaries so not many exist and they’re mostly in Museums. Having lived both places I can attest the Chinese can fake/reproduce almost anything & I mean very well. The Russians lately have gotten better as technology does I assume. I do have real contacts through churches etc. if you’d really like a coin because I can get some very similar, but they’ll be real, let me know. I’ll check for any doubles as well. In the ‘90s when I came back here I tried grading these coins and most would turn me down thus I have an ancient collection ungraded, but researched by me. Two of my favorite coins is I have a silver shekel that came from the time period that Judas betrayed Jesus with. I also have what. Is called “the widows mite”. If you remember the story of the old wouthat gives the last cents at there time and everyone complained in the church during the apostles time period and the apostle rebuked everyone and said that she gave more than all of them because that was the last of what she had etc. I like these two coins and they recently found an coin in Israeli archeology with Isaiah’s name on it. Profound. I’d love to get one, but much of their true history was destroyed. I was blessed to be able to help at some digs and that is were I obtained those Roman coins. They allowed me to keep them.  I’ve led a blessed life, but God was able to reach and bless many through my parents ministry and the childish resentments I had not being able to be in real school with real kids and home school. I can tell you this though, when I hit college here, I was taken aback how far we are with information being taught. So, the greatest gift home schooling gave me was a lesson on how to teach myself. That’s what it’s all about anyway. History is so white washed it’d blow your mind some truths I’ve come to find myself. Karen, God Bless you & I’ll look for you something ligit but may not be silver or gold..... what the victors inscribed in metal coins etc. a lot of times is the passion behind my hobby, because history told to us is through the victors and this much history has to be found which is sad because we as humans seem to continue this process and not learn from the past.....

[Trevor40]

4 hours ago, JKK said:

The weight is correct for a Moroccan 4th Standard dirham of the Moulay Abd'al-Rahman period. Fez Hazrat and Marrakesh are possible mints. I see the zarb/zuriba on the mint side, and the legible writing below it is consistent with coins attributed to Marrakesh. I can't speak to its authenticity, but rest assured there is minimal Greek influence and zero Mongolian. There is no good reason to believe that the given date, AH 1263, is a counterstamp.

Moroccan culture is a blend of Berber, Arab, Sephardi Jews, West African and European influences. ‘Wikipedia’

Edited August 10, 2019 by Trevor40

[JKK]

AH 1263 was roughly 1846 CE, just in case there's anyone participating here who did not realize it.

[Trevor40]

Same trade roots & influences......no time or year change of the issue. Not meant to confuse..I prefer AC...

Edited August 10, 2019 by Trevor40

[JKK]

30 minutes ago, Trevor40 said:

Same trade roots & influences......no time or year change of the issue. Not meant to confuse..I prefer AC...

That's true. Mongol culture was a massive influence on 1800s Morocco. Enormous. As we all know, the Golden Horde was at the gates of Rabat.

I prefer AC, too, but I only use mine in the summer.

[KarenHolcomb]

On 8/9/2019 at 10:40 PM, JKK said:

AH 1263 was roughly 1846 CE, just in case there's anyone participating here who did not realize it.

I thought it was 1820/21 but being dyslexic I have more than once looked up 1236 instead so I bet 1236 is 1820/21?

[KarenHolcomb]

On 8/9/2019 at 7:58 PM, Trevor40 said:

Karen, I apologize, I after we talked I ate a power bar & was going to break & woke to the smell of my wife cooking. I’ve been overdoing it lately. I’m glad JKK could help & by influence of Mongolia and Greek, with this date both those countries controlled the known world at some point. I have many small Roman coins with the same like mixture of gibberish and actual language, but that was just at glance and first guess. The website I gave you had your exact coin but in 1299. I’m happy you figured it out, I’m the same way about tracing something. I have some ani isn’t coins that some archaeologists can’t tell me anything about them, though I know they’re real. I lived in the Ukraine for 6 years as a child MK & have many coins with that writing & somehow the Russian translators we had at the time explained the old slavics or “huahall” as they called them and the mixture of cultures Pakistani and Indian Sand---script. This the crazy maze looking designs. Some of these are real, but I have truly legit ancients from their sources that do not look as well as some on those sights and your silver coin... sorry, thats why I warned you. Silver did not last for trade so they usually during this time used brass etc. the Chinese actually had to shape the coins with the round brass coins and a square in the middle because it was sacredly how the ancients thought the world looked like & finally trade ensued. Any who, I had the chance as a Ukrainian MK child to buy an ancient gold coin with this type writing & I used my Russian friend because if they knew you were Americann the price automatically changed somehow lol. It was $20 & I begged my parents for it at the time, but little did I know we were surviving on $20 a month because of the economy & time period. Thus, I jokingly bring up to my parents the price I find on these coins and back then gold and silver were rarely used except by kings, rulers, & dignitaries so not many exist and they’re mostly in Museums. Having lived both places I can attest the Chinese can fake/reproduce almost anything & I mean very well. The Russians lately have gotten better as technology does I assume. I do have real contacts through churches etc. if you’d really like a coin because I can get some very similar, but they’ll be real, let me know. I’ll check for any doubles as well. In the ‘90s when I came back here I tried grading these coins and most would turn me down thus I have an ancient collection ungraded, but researched by me. Two of my favorite coins is I have a silver shekel that came from the time period that Judas betrayed Jesus with. I also have what. Is called “the widows mite”. If you remember the story of the old wouthat gives the last cents at there time and everyone complained in the church during the apostles time period and the apostle rebuked everyone and said that she gave more than all of them because that was the last of what she had etc. I like these two coins and they recently found an coin in Israeli archeology with Isaiah’s name on it. Profound. I’d love to get one, but much of their true history was destroyed. I was blessed to be able to help at some digs and that is were I obtained those Roman coins. They allowed me to keep them.  I’ve led a blessed life, but God was able to reach and bless many through my parents ministry and the childish resentments I had not being able to be in real school with real kids and home school. I can tell you this though, when I hit college here, I was taken aback how far we are with information being taught. So, the greatest gift home schooling gave me was a lesson on how to teach myself. That’s what it’s all about anyway. History is so white washed it’d blow your mind some truths I’ve come to find myself. Karen, God Bless you & I’ll look for you something ligit but may not be silver or gold..... what the victors inscribed in metal coins etc. a lot of times is the passion behind my hobby, because history told to us is through the victors and this much history has to be found which is sad because we as humans seem to continue this process and not learn from the past.....

Not that this is all I took from your response, but are you saying that you think my coin is fake? 

[KarenHolcomb]

So I did quite a bit of looking today and let me just say, JKK, that idk how you were able to dicipher any of the markings on this thing. I had alphabets from several periods in front of me andd couldn't make heads or tales of what the markings on my coin even are. Smh! Something I do wonder is if this is supposed to be part of a 'tree'? But one site said that these are usually barrell shaped as mkne is but most of what I see online are pretty much round. Also, I don't wanna challenge you because I know you know your spoon, but it seems most dirham weights( I guess that's how they are referred to) weighed in more the same as our Cent. Mine being 1.47gms and the typical dirhem of the era was about 2.82gms, then wouldn't this one be a half dirhem? Also, the reason I too turned toward the Mongols was because of the year. It doesn't seem like 1263 was anything other than the Mongols but idk because it does get awfully confusing when you've even thought about that kind of stuff. Incredibly interesting, but confusing all the same. Od course I could still be mixing the 1236/1263 up again but still can't find anything prior to 1268 or 1238. I think I must be mixing them up because that didn't make sense as I was keying it, 1238 was all I wanted it enter. I hate this disorder! It makes everything more difficult and so much time gets wasted.

[Trevor40]

You are correct about the date Karen. My Uncle fought in Tunisia during the Nazi skirmish & brought one of the rings back & coins. My wife does mission work in Africa, but other places. The Wikipedia description describes all the countries of trade & influences with Muslim being a large part. Pakistan as I mentioned earlier is mostly Muslim & many moved into India. If you take Indian sandscript & mix Islam with a splash of some type of Chinese/Mongolian influences, you get this scrolling puzzle type language on the ancient Indian coin I showed you. I don’t know for sure your coin is fake, but I have bought coins on eBay since their inception & they’re is so much fraud right now that the entire company is seeking help. You go global, you pay a price. It’s just to me, yours compared to the Russian ones I showed you look too similar & Russian authentication is a joke. I’ve been burnt, so I’d go to a pawn store or refiner & ask them to scan it with the spectral/scattered imaging x-ray gun to tell you what the metal is & you’ll be able to tell by purity & other elements whether it’s authentic. I have a few that do it for free because they want your business. I hope to get one of theses guns soon, but their $40,000. Ive sort of got a self made process, but it’d be way too difficult to explain. I hope it is real, to me I just know how history worked and silver & gold rarely got to the masses. Every empire that ever existed started with gold, then silver, then copper/bronze & then tin/aluminum type cheap metals. Looks like we’re headed in the same direction, but elevated process. It happened to the Greeks, then the Romans and we’re supposedly still in the New Roman order..... 

[Trevor40]

[Trevor40]