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I was told by someone on here a while back that it was not possible that the coin on the right came from the mint in this condition upon futher research and examining the coin on the left that I picked from a small coin shop today i notice the same die characteristic Look between AM can someone help me on this please thanks

20190529_152147.jpg

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Both coins have been damaged. Just PMD. 

It is impossible for the markings on either coin to have happened during the striking of the coin. 

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Can you please explain how its impossible please? I sat and pondered a long time on this when someone else thought the same way how is it impossible I picked the coin on the left from a small shop today coin on right I've had over 5 or 6 years than to bring the one home on the left today and examining it with my 8× loupe same die characteristics all one has to do is look between the AM on left coin & you can see clearly it has the same width&length die mark just as the one on right!

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If this was a newly minted coin direct from the mint and had this damage I think people in the 1900 might just take it back to the bank and say there's something wrong with it. A lot of damage can happen to a coin over a hundred years. 

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2 hours ago, Mason254 said:

Can you please explain how its impossible please? I sat and pondered a long time on this when someone else thought the same way how is it impossible I picked the coin on the left from a small shop today coin on right I've had over 5 or 6 years than to bring the one home on the left today and examining it with my 8× loupe same die characteristics all one has to do is look between the AM on left coin & you can see clearly it has the same width&length die mark just as the one on right!

Well....you'd have to have a working die that had several raised lumps of metal on it to strike a coin with the indentations seen on your coin.  As such a die would be easily seen as defective, there is no way it would have passed quality control at the mint then or now.  Based on what I know about the die making process also tells me that the making of a die with raised lumps of metal like that would be impossible to create by mistake as well.   That's why it's impossible that your coin is a true mint error.  It has to be post minting damage because there is no way that I can think of that a coin was struck with deep indentations like that.....all other explanations for those marks can easily be eliminated.

Edited by Mohawk
Typo....don't use Dragon Naturally Speaking on the boards..

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Let's flip it around, since the weight of evidence says to most of us that it's PMD. In your view, mason254, what occurred during minting to cause this damage? Here's a chance to show everyone, through what I presume is strong knowledge of the minting process, how this might have happened at the mint in that timeframe. What type of mint device or malfunction caused this, in your opinion? Do you think that a grease-filled die caused it? Cuds? What's your theory of the cause?

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16 minutes ago, JKK said:

Let's flip it around, since the weight of evidence says to most of us that it's PMD. In your view, mason254, what occurred during minting to cause this damage? Here's a chance to show everyone, through what I presume is strong knowledge of the minting process, how this might have happened at the mint in that timeframe. What type of mint device or malfunction caused this, in your opinion? Do you think that a grease-filled die caused it? Cuds? What's your theory of the cause?

Now THAT'S an interesting way to look at this.......I'll be waiting anxiously for the explanation.....:popcorn:

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I have no clue honestly but I just cannot wrap my head around how I can have a coin for so long only to later find another coin with the same indention I've always wanted to find another coin of it's kind for comparison and I thought I did today which is still mind bottling because the odds of finding another coin as comparison was slim to none if it was pmd than I found that one today as I said I'm not sure but look at the odds of that I don't have a clue but I do know that this is Exactly the reason I enjoy numismatics because there is always going to be the chance of discovering the unknown only sure way is to send the both in for examination which I plan on doing thank you guys for the information and knowledge that you have given me on this matter I'm not trying to be argumentative about anything it's just the coincidence out weigh the rest again thanks I will inform you guys of whatever the outcome maybe 

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55 minutes ago, Mason254 said:

I have no clue honestly but I just cannot wrap my head around how I can have a coin for so long only to later find another coin with the same indention I've always wanted to find another coin of it's kind for comparison and I thought I did today which is still mind bottling because the odds of finding another coin as comparison was slim to none if it was pmd than I found that one today as I said I'm not sure but look at the odds of that I don't have a clue but I do know that this is Exactly the reason I enjoy numismatics because there is always going to be the chance of discovering the unknown only sure way is to send the both in for examination which I plan on doing thank you guys for the information and knowledge that you have given me on this matter I'm not trying to be argumentative about anything it's just the coincidence out weigh the rest again thanks I will inform you guys of whatever the outcome maybe 

Oh. Okay. Got it.

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1 hour ago, Mason254 said:

I have no clue honestly but I just cannot wrap my head around how I can have a coin for so long only to later find another coin with the same indention I've always wanted to find another coin of it's kind for comparison and I thought I did today which is still mind bottling because the odds of finding another coin as comparison was slim to none if it was pmd than I found that one today as I said I'm not sure but look at the odds of that I don't have a clue but I do know that this is Exactly the reason I enjoy numismatics because there is always going to be the chance of discovering the unknown only sure way is to send the both in for examination which I plan on doing thank you guys for the information and knowledge that you have given me on this matter I'm not trying to be argumentative about anything it's just the coincidence out weigh the rest again thanks I will inform you guys of whatever the outcome maybe 

Well.....it's your money.  Sometimes education is expensive.....boy do I know that.  I've tried to tell you the truth of the matter and I've tried to get you to see it.  We all have.  You clearly don't want to so go ahead and spend the $80+ on this venture.  I can't even really honestly wish you good luck because I know exactly how this story ends........luck has nothing to do with this bad ending.

Edited by Mohawk

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2 hours ago, Mason254 said:

I have no clue honestly but I just cannot wrap my head around how I can have a coin for so long only to later find another coin with the same indention I've always wanted to find another coin of it's kind for comparison and I thought I did today which is still mind bottling because the odds of finding another coin as comparison was slim to none if it was pmd than I found that one today as I said I'm not sure but look at the odds of that I don't have a clue but I do know that this is Exactly the reason I enjoy numismatics because there is always going to be the chance of discovering the unknown only sure way is to send the both in for examination which I plan on doing thank you guys for the information and knowledge that you have given me on this matter I'm not trying to be argumentative about anything it's just the coincidence out weigh the rest again thanks I will inform you guys of whatever the outcome maybe 

You're going to waste some grading money taking lumps over this, I'm sorry to say.

The simplest explanation tends to win. It's just more likely that both of these have been mashed or dented in a similar way since leaving the mint 100 years ago. With mint errors, there's an explanation of what happened and how that lead to the look of the coin. If you can't provide that explanation / rationale, it's going to be PMD.

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Mason-

It's your money and if you want to waste it, be my guest. You don't seem to want to listen to people with years of experience.

What you have to learn is that their is a limited number of things that can happen during the striking of a coin that can cause an error whereas there are countless things that can happen to a coin that can cause damage such as yours. Your coin on the right seems to have been intentionally damaged whereas the one on the left looks like it has taken a hit and no, the indentations are not the same. Look at the bottom of the one on the left, it is rounded and not angled as the others.

If you still think you are right, then go for it but please let us know the results.

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On 5/29/2019 at 4:31 PM, Mason254 said:

I was told by someone on here a while back that it was not possible that the coin on the right came from the mint in this condition upon futher research and examining the coin on the left that I picked from a small coin shop today i notice the same die characteristic Look between AM can someone help me on this please thanks

20190529_152147.jpg

Seriously, I think your on to something.

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3 minutes ago, Numismatic, A.A.S. said:

Seriously, I think your on to something.

Really?!  Are you actually serious here?  What is Mason on to here, may I ask?

Edited by Mohawk

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First and foremost I would just like to say that I apologize if any of you feel as if I have neglected to understand the level of knowledge in numismatics that most of you all have as for myself I have not been into numismatics but for a short period of time my grandfather and I would go to different small coin shops during my summer visits to NYC in the late 80'summerthru mid 90's before his passing so some of my small collection were gave to me from him others from time where we would walk from shop to shop where occasionally he would pull out his glass to view a coin for maybe 4-5 seconds per side and to make a long story short I have always remembered him saying when I said pee-paw you only looked at that coin for a few seconds before making a decision if you would purchase it or not how do you know if it was a good one or not He said son I don't know but what if I did!But what if I didn't look at all than I would never know! So thank you again everyone for your input has not falling on deaf ears 

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I have no clue honestly but I just cannot wrap my head around how I can have a coin for so long only to later find another coin with the same indention I've always wanted to find another coin of it's kind for comparison and I thought I did today which is still mind bottling because the odds of finding another coin as comparison was slim to none if it was pmd than I found that one today as I said I'm not sure but look at the odds of that I don't have a clue but I do know that this is Exactly the reason I enjoy numismatics because there is always going to be the chance of discovering the unknown only sure way is to send the both in for examination which I plan on doing thank you guys for the information and knowledge that you have given me on this matter I'm not trying to be argumentative about anything it's just the coincidence out weigh the rest again thanks I will inform you guys of whatever the outcome maybe 

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6 hours ago, Mohawk said:

Really?!  Are you actually serious here?  What is Mason on to here, may I ask?

I'm being sarcastic...sorry, it's just another post by someone who could educate themselves but wants to believe only themselves...sometimes I wonder if it's legit....unbelievable posts...even some YN's comment about this happening and ask why people don't research first....OK, out of the pulpit and back in the saddle....

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5 hours ago, JKK said:

If that type of PMD was common (and it is; as I mentioned, I have seen several), that would also explain your second coin. Evidently at some point pennies were indented, probably by percussion but perhaps by enormous pressure, sometimes once and sometimes repeatedly, with a thin pie-piece-shaped instrument or bit making an impression resembling Akkadian cuneiform. That is a supposition (the explanation) based on observable fact (the type of indentation). That is as far as I can see the facts going.

The most unexplained aspect is why this was done, who benefited from it. Sometimes the benefit is simple amusement (a kid got hold of it). Perhaps, also, in some industrial application people found that the perfect way to shim two surfaces apart was to force a penny in there. Laugh if you want, but I used to work in a planing mill with equipment that dated back to the 1940s. To get the last board out, one had to pull a cord and hold it, waiting for a certain steel rod to rise up past a chalk mark on a steel plate, and then take a quick jump. I can assure you that we McGuyvered anything we needed to. How much more so would that have been in the early 1900s with less precise machining?

And since you're receptive to help, please for the love of God begin using periods and ending sentences. Doesn't matter in short paras, but the longer ones are excruciating. It will help us help you. This is not a punctuation police issue, but a fundamental readability issue for people trying to understand what you type. It will show respect, and frankly, we have shown enough respect for what most of us consider a very absurd idea that I think we have earned that courtesy of you. It will help you and us.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. It is possible that the same or similar event/process caused the marks on the two coins. After all, a cent is a 3/4 inch x approx.1/16 inch (mostly) copper disc, and that may come in handy for several different reasons/applications. I remember stories of people replacing a burned out fuse in their basement fuse box with a cent (hopefully temporarily), because it was the right size, and conducted electricity well. Maybe there was a popular brand of bean sheller or block plane or pipe cutter that worked better with a cent-sized shim in a certain place. The marks could have been caused by the machine, or even by prying the cent out of the machine with a screwdriver or similar tool.

Just my 2c

Edited by Just Bob
Although there actually is a tool called a "box" plane, what I meant to say was "block."

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2 hours ago, Numismatic, A.A.S. said:

I'm being sarcastic...sorry, it's just another post by someone who could educate themselves but wants to believe only themselves...sometimes I wonder if it's legit....unbelievable posts...even some YN's comment about this happening and ask why people don't research first....OK, out of the pulpit and back in the saddle....

Ahh....gotcha.  Sarcasm is sometimes tough to pick up on a chat board.  I was actually shocked to see that comment from you......you're a savvy collector, from what I've seen :).  It all makes sense now.  Sorry for being so dense.

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It amazes me how nobody has even picked up on the doubling all over this coin in efforts to prove me wrong I am not trying to be right which is what this has turned into I was just looking for positive feed back on a coin that happened to be interesting to me to due to its characteristics so I'm not trying to be right nor argumentative about anything yes there is a million ways this could have occurred but I believe we all are capable of learning something new each and everyday and I do every time I open this forum 

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22 minutes ago, Coin Cave said:

Put up pictures of the reverse.  

 

20190531_022929.jpg

20190531_022819.jpg

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