Rotated Reverse Coins 1 1

[Tyrock]

Last night, at my local club meeting, I had a chance to buy an 1835 Classic Head half cent graded NGC 55. I decided not to buy it as it had a rotated reverse and I don't care for coins with a rotated reverse. I'm aware that some collectors like them especially if they are rotated at least 45 degrees or more. What would you say is the average collector opinion on coins with rotated reverses? 

[Mohawk]

That's an issue that is highly dependent on individual tastes and collecting interests.  For me, I don't really care one way or another.  With Roman coins, a new collecting love, things like rotated reverses are so common that they don't even really figure into the equation when assessing the coin.  But, that said, I've never really been much of an error coin guy but if there was a coin that wasn't Roman, like something for my thematic sets of coins featuring birds and coins featuring infants, a rotated reverse wouldn't cause me not to buy the coin unless it made the coin command a price that was much higher than what would be asked for an example of the coin without the rotated reverse.  That's just me though.

[skippy]

Strongly rotated (< 90 degrees) shield nickels are scarce.  I would pay a premium for one.

[bsshog40]

Now I'd be pretty happy finding a 180 degree rotated coin. Lol 

[dleonard-3]

I've had several "rotated reverse" half cents, and they didn't get any more value.  Except when I showed someone I would say "and look, it has a rotated reverse"...………:-)

[coinman1794]

On classic US coins (pre 1839), a rotated reverse is relatively common and not considered a major error. Thus, it tends to have little or no affect on the value, in many cases. Therefore, I would argue it is a matter of taste, and I would also prefer not to have a rotation.

On later coins, this error is much more unusual and will add value to a coin if the rotation is greater than 10-15%, in most cases. These are generally classified as Mint Errors and collected mostly by the Error community.

[Nurses Rule]

Coins with rotated reverses are no different than double triple struck filled does clashed die coins or any of the other known mint cremated die varieties Some collect them others do not Personally I do bc I feel it represents a more complete set of coins vs the date and mintmark set 

[ldhair]

180 degree rotation.

 

[zadok]

...in several of the liberty seated series there r medallic alignments (180 degree rotations) which sometimes r the more common varieties n at times the rarer varieties most r actively collected, in some seated series the rotations r considered quite rare n aggressively sought...i personally find them worth a premium....

[Henri Charriere]

This thread is instructive in the fickle ways of Moderation.  No complaints from anyone about an artful and apparently successful attempt to revive a FOUR YEAR-OLD-plus thread.

It's all in the presentation and reception by the membership. 

[J P M]

On 5/29/2023 at 11:18 AM, Henri Charriere said:

This thread is instructive in the fickle ways of Moderation.  No complaints from anyone about an artful and apparently successful attempt to revive a FOUR YEAR-OLD-plus thread.

It's all in the presentation and reception by the membership. 

Do they not like a revived thread Henri. I know it sometimes throughs me off my gyroscope 

[VKurtB]

The timeliness of this thread never grows stale. Are we sure the reverses are rotated? They TEND to be the anvil die and obverses tend to be the hammer die. Isn’t that more likely to be the die rotating?

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:54 PM, VKurtB said:

The timeliness of this thread never grows stale. Are we sure the reverses are rotated? They TEND to be the anvil die and obverses tend to be the hammer die. Isn’t that more likely to be the die rotating?

Never gave it any thought -- not mechanically inclined -- reeks of plausibility.

[zadok]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:54 PM, VKurtB said:

The timeliness of this thread never grows stale. Are we sure the reverses are rotated? They TEND to be the anvil die and obverses tend to be the hammer die. Isn’t that more likely to be the die rotating?

...regardless of the die orientation at time of striking the normal observation of the coin is the orientation of the reverse to the obverse...prob not based on the correctness of the dies at time of striking but on observing the coin in hand...id assume the most correct description should be just the number of degrees of rotation n not refer to in relation to the reverse die, i.e. 45 degrees of rotation or 90 degrees or 180 degrees or whatever or in the latter case medallic versus coin alignment...but as humans we digress....

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2023 at 5:41 PM, zadok said:

...regardless of the die orientation at time of striking the normal observation of the coin is the orientation of the reverse to the obverse...prob not based on the correctness of the dies at time of striking but on observing the coin in hand...id assume the most correct description should be just the number of degrees of rotation n not refer to in relation to the reverse die, i.e. 45 degrees of rotation or 90 degrees or 180 degrees or whatever or in the latter case medallic versus coin alignment...but as humans we digress....

Just sayin’. We should be calling them rotated obverses, not reverses. If it happens with a coin with an edge marker, like the Type 2 ASE’s, we would know for sure.

[Henri Charriere]

It is an accepted use of an unarticulated point of reference, seemingly idiomatic e.g., trains pull into stations, you either get on line, as in New York, or in line, elsewhere. And coins exhibit rotated reverses. I believe the term "rotated obverse" would sound awkward and not a bit clumsy rolling off one's tongue. Reversed die recognizes the dated side as being superior. Like all the time zones deferring to Greenwich Mean Time as a point of reference.

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/10/2019 at 3:44 PM, Tyrock said:

Last night, at my local club meeting, I had a chance to buy an 1835 Classic Head half cent graded NGC 55. I decided not to buy it as it had a rotated reverse and I don't care for coins with a rotated reverse.... What would you say is the average collector opinion on coins with rotated reverses? 

I wouldn't know what the average collector's opinion would be -- I don't even know if these genetic mutations command a premium, but if they do and this one were 25% off FMV, would you still have been interested in acquiring one?   

[zadok]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:44 PM, VKurtB said:

Just sayin’. We should be calling them rotated obverses, not reverses. If it happens with a coin with an edge marker, like the Type 2 ASE’s, we would know for sure.

...i understand ur observation based on the hammer n anvil dies, i wasnt clear enuf in my comment...i believe the most correct would be to assess the coin in question as having XX% rotation of dies n not even mention either obverse nor reverse die...but its such a minor point in most areas or series that it doesnt get much attention....

[RWB]

....but what if it's the obverse that is rotated? Hmmmm...?

[ldhair]

On 5/31/2023 at 9:25 PM, zadok said:

i believe the most correct would be to assess the coin in question as having XX% rotation of dies n not even mention either obverse nor reverse die.

Yes

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:54 PM, VKurtB said:

The timeliness of this thread never grows stale. Are we sure the reverses are rotated? They TEND to be the anvil die and obverses tend to be the hammer die. Isn’t that more likely to be the die rotating?

[Well now, see, this is what happens when the lines are drawn on the Forum. Only one seasoned member is permitted to speak ex cathedra for the congregation on a topic and no one dares alienating anyone else for fear of gaining or losing favor with followers.]

[VKurtB]

On 6/1/2023 at 2:28 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[Well now, see, this is what happens when the lines are drawn on the Forum. Only one seasoned member is permitted to speak ex cathedra for the congregation on a topic and no one dares alienating anyone else for fear of gaining or losing favor with followers.]

Some people visit actual mints, small and large. Others visit dusty rooms full of documents with a slick scanner. It’s all knowledge, I suppose. 

[Henri Charriere]

[I suppose I could advance a good argument suggesting the sun does not actually rise, and does not actually set, but that would be an exercise in futility. If a coin is placed vertically on its edge, any deviance is off the perpendicular using the obverse side with the date as the point of reference.  If the ANA objects, they will release a statement stating succinctly, the complaint will be reviewed when it is received.]  🤣

[RWB]

In a Ulhorn-type toggle press, the upper die is less firmly held in place. The die is inserted into a chuck, and this goes at the end of a stake whose distance is adjustable with a wedge and locking bolt. (This is how pressure was adjusted.) The lower die simply sat into a non-adjustable chuck.

[All these chucks were checked on Groundhog Day each year by woodchucks who checked chucks and chucked bad chucks into the woods.]

Edited June 1, 2023 by RWB