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What should be my first graded penny?

23 posts in this topic

Hey folks, 

All these penny posts are starting to get me interested in penny's. I have very little knowledge of them so I was wondering if you folks could steer me in the right direction. My question is this - what would be a decent first graded penny to purchase? My budget is around 200$ on this one. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Peter

PS - preferably looking for an indian head cent

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If you're going to buy a slab, think of a high grade early 1900s penny, or a slightly less high grade 1800s. Farther back you go, by and large, the more you'll have to spend per grade level. I don't think you would get a MS-64R for that, but a 63RB in the first category should be doable. In the second category, back to 1879, 63RB should be possible for that. Before 1879, a few issues will be available in 60+ for that money, but most of the less common ones will be around EF-40. For a rarity choice, you could probably find an 08-S in AU-50.

Note that 'you could probably find' translates to 'I looked this up in the Coin Values magazine listings and that's what I saw.' You might have better or worse luck, depending. At $200, you have better dilution of the sunk slabbing costs, which are baked in; while CV prices are often a bit high, the fact that you're looking for a slab might just offset the difference between CV and market reality.

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1 hour ago, JKK said:

If you're going to buy a slab, think of a high grade early 1900s penny, or a slightly less high grade 1800s. Farther back you go, by and large, the more you'll have to spend per grade level. I don't think you would get a MS-64R for that, but a 63RB in the first category should be doable. In the second category, back to 1879, 63RB should be possible for that. Before 1879, a few issues will be available in 60+ for that money, but most of the less common ones will be around EF-40. For a rarity choice, you could probably find an 08-S in AU-50.

Note that 'you could probably find' translates to 'I looked this up in the Coin Values magazine listings and that's what I saw.' You might have better or worse luck, depending. At $200, you have better dilution of the sunk slabbing costs, which are baked in; while CV prices are often a bit high, the fact that you're looking for a slab might just offset the difference between CV and market reality.

Thanks for the help JKK, I think I have to up my budget on this one as you said before, the slab costs are offsetting. I am currently checking out some 1908's S, appear to be hard to find on ebay that are in au or ms. 

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A nice high grade circulated 1908-S would be a good choice, I think, but you may have to go down to XF to snag one.  Another choice I'd consider is a nice 1909....last year of issue and according to NGC coin explorer, you can get one in MS 64 Brown for around $100.  If you go up to 65 Brown, it goes up to $185.  I've always thought that the 1909 Indian is a cool coin myself, and I'm not even much of a US coin guy any longer!

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9 hours ago, Mohawk said:

A nice high grade circulated 1908-S would be a good choice, I think, but you may have to go down to XF to snag one.  Another choice I'd consider is a nice 1909....last year of issue and according to NGC coin explorer, you can get one in MS 64 Brown for around $100.  If you go up to 65 Brown, it goes up to $185.  I've always thought that the 1909 Indian is a cool coin myself, and I'm not even much of a US coin guy any longer!

It's funny you said you're not much of a US coin guy any longer because I think I am starting to transition over to ancient Roman coins. Ironically I discovered a deep interest in them as I was looking for an Indian head slab to buy on ebay.  I came across a promoted coin that struck my interest and since yesterday I have been doing research on the Roman period. I happen to pick up these two coins because I thought they were really cool. 

 

marcus.jpg

s-l1600.jpg

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3 hours ago, BipolarBaby said:

It's funny you said you're not much of a US coin guy any longer because I think I am starting to transition over to ancient Roman coins. Ironically I discovered a deep interest in them as I was looking for an Indian head slab to buy on ebay.  I came across a promoted coin that struck my interest and since yesterday I have been doing research on the Roman period. I happen to pick up these two coins because I thought they were really cool. 

 

marcus.jpg

s-l1600.jpg

Okay....now it's about to get REALLY funny.....I've been looking at the coins of Empress Faustina II lately myself!  I haven't bought any yet, but I'm just trying to decide between a couple of different ones I have my eye on.  And, to add more funniness, Faustina II was Marcus Aurelius' wife!  I think you made a much better choice than the Indian cent by choosing those coins.  They're both really cool.  I really dig the denarius in particular.

Cheers!

~Tom

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37 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

Okay....now it's about to get REALLY funny.....I've been looking at the coins of Empress Faustina II lately myself!  I haven't bought any yet, but I'm just trying to decide between a couple of different ones I have my eye on.  And, to add more funniness, Faustina II was Marcus Aurelius' wife!  I think you made a much better choice than the Indian cent by choosing those coins.  They're both really cool.  I really dig the denarius in particular.

Cheers!

~Tom

Thanks Tom, I think I did too. The history behind these coins is so incredible, to be able to hold a coin during this era is just amazing to me. I am so fresh to this topic but i cant wait to learn more. So was Faustina II Marcus' aunt?  I am confused about that one. 

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7 minutes ago, BipolarBaby said:

Thanks Tom, I think I did too. The history behind these coins is so incredible, to be able to hold a coin during this era is just amazing to me. I am so fresh to this topic but i cant wait to learn more. So was Faustina II Marcus' aunt?  I am confused about that one. 

Faustina II was Marcus Aurelius' wife.  Faustina I was his aunt.  But Faustina II was also Faustina I's daughter, making her Marcus Aurelius' cousin, so there was still some incest going on.  I'm very fresh to this topic as well, but I'm already enjoying it.  I really like the Roman Empress coins in particular.

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5 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

Faustina II was Marcus Aurelius' wife.  Faustina I was his aunt.  But Faustina II was also Faustina I's daughter, making her Marcus Aurelius' cousin, so there was still some incest going on.  I'm very fresh to this topic as well, but I'm already enjoying it.  I really like the Roman Empress coins in particular.

ahhhhhh now i gotcha. I knew she was his wife I just couldnt remember if she was his aunt as well because i've read a lot of "the son of so and so who is the father's uncles nephews cousin" so its a bit hard to remember it all. I will definitely keep up on buying these ancients coins as I learn more about them. So interesting! which coin do you have your eye on if you dont mind me asking? Thanks Tom

- Peter

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1 hour ago, BipolarBaby said:

ahhhhhh now i gotcha. I knew she was his wife I just couldnt remember if she was his aunt as well because i've read a lot of "the son of so and so who is the father's uncles nephews cousin" so its a bit hard to remember it all. I will definitely keep up on buying these ancients coins as I learn more about them. So interesting! which coin do you have your eye on if you dont mind me asking? Thanks Tom

- Peter

Hi Peter,

I actually have my eye on several.....pretty much any of Faustina II's silver coins.  I just have to find that perfect first coin to purchase.....there's so many I like that it's hard to make a decision.  When I do make it, though, I'll be sure to share it here!

~Tom

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31 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

Hi Peter,

I actually have my eye on several.....pretty much any of Faustina II's silver coins.  I just have to find that perfect first coin to purchase.....there's so many I like that it's hard to make a decision.  When I do make it, though, I'll be sure to share it here!

~Tom

Good stuff Tom, I have my eye on one of those already hehehe. I'm hoping one like it will be around when I'm willing to spend the money. This recent buying binge has to come to an end soon or I'm gonna end up at the poor house! Fortunately though, the prices seem reasonable for coins that are so ancient. I honestly would have imagined these coins to be unattainable as the value would be ridiculous. Apparently they're more common than I thought? That's another part I'm still not close to sure about - how rare are these coins?

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I would concentrate on an Indian head cent in proof condition....start with the most common cheapest...just see what's available...probably damaged and it might be tough....then compare the business strikes and see what's comparable....you might be surprised...you could also just go after key dates regardless of condition.....

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6 hours ago, BipolarBaby said:

Good stuff Tom, I have my eye on one of those already hehehe. I'm hoping one like it will be around when I'm willing to spend the money. This recent buying binge has to come to an end soon or I'm gonna end up at the poor house! Fortunately though, the prices seem reasonable for coins that are so ancient. I honestly would have imagined these coins to be unattainable as the value would be ridiculous. Apparently they're more common than I thought? That's another part I'm still not close to sure about - how rare are these coins?

Hi Peter,

Some of them are pretty crazy price-wise.....check out Faustina II's gold coins......those will shock you!  I saw an aureus I fell in love with from a reference website, then I found out they go for about $12,000!  So, her gold is definitely off the table.  But, just talking about Faustina II as she's who I know the most about by far, her coinage issues are prolific.  Which is probably why they are so affordable and I'd imagine that comes into play with other ancients as well.  I've been considering and researching the possibility of getting one silver coin from each pagan empress who issued any silver coinage.  The whole set would be around 33 coins or so and the coins are available and very affordable for 32 of them.  Only Cornelia Supera is really difficult to locate and to afford.  As far as rarity goes, I think that there are some that are very common, some that are very rare and everything else in between.  I still have A TON to learn though.  I'm a total noob here!

~Tom

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9 hours ago, Mohawk said:

Hi Peter,

Some of them are pretty crazy price-wise.....check out Faustina II's gold coins......those will shock you!  I saw an aureus I fell in love with from a reference website, then I found out they go for about $12,000!  So, her gold is definitely off the table.  But, just talking about Faustina II as she's who I know the most about by far, her coinage issues are prolific.  Which is probably why they are so affordable and I'd imagine that comes into play with other ancients as well.  I've been considering and researching the possibility of getting one silver coin from each pagan empress who issued any silver coinage.  The whole set would be around 33 coins or so and the coins are available and very affordable for 32 of them.  Only Cornelia Supera is really difficult to locate and to afford.  As far as rarity goes, I think that there are some that are very common, some that are very rare and everything else in between.  I still have A TON to learn though.  I'm a total noob here!

~Tom

HOLY COW MAN! I am looking at a few of them now and boy oh boy are they sexy. The gold tone of it is something extraordinary I tell ya. I think I have to own one of these now Tom! WHAT DID YOU DO TO ME!?!?!?!? hahaha. I like your idea on collecting the silver coinage from each empress. It's really hard to tell where to start with these coins. I think its really all about preference, just like anything else.  There is a lot of varieties of each coin too as you probably already know. I think for me I am going to start checking more of these gold ones out. Expensive but I wouldn't mind selling off some silver bullion for one of those gold bad boys. 

As far as starting your collection, what do you think about this coin? Price fair you think? I might snag it..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Roman-Empire-Empress-Faustina-Sr-Silver-Denarii-Ancient-Coin-NGC-XF-Slabbed/311800004255?hash=item4898ba7e9f:g:oKYAAOSw0j9ZUuTO

 

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4 hours ago, BipolarBaby said:

HOLY COW MAN! I am looking at a few of them now and boy oh boy are they sexy. The gold tone of it is something extraordinary I tell ya. I think I have to own one of these now Tom! WHAT DID YOU DO TO ME!?!?!?!? hahaha. I like your idea on collecting the silver coinage from each empress. It's really hard to tell where to start with these coins. I think its really all about preference, just like anything else.  There is a lot of varieties of each coin too as you probably already know. I think for me I am going to start checking more of these gold ones out. Expensive but I wouldn't mind selling off some silver bullion for one of those gold bad boys. 

As far as starting your collection, what do you think about this coin? Price fair you think? I might snag it..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Roman-Empire-Empress-Faustina-Sr-Silver-Denarii-Ancient-Coin-NGC-XF-Slabbed/311800004255?hash=item4898ba7e9f:g:oKYAAOSw0j9ZUuTO

 

I think it's a very nice coin.  However, as I'm still a newbie myself, I am unsure of the price.  I've noticed that many denarii raw go for about $50 to $100, so I myself would say that $250 is a little high.  I think that you may be paying a premium for having the coin in a slab with that sale, but I could be wrong.  If I were you, I'd do some pricing research before making the purchase.  The information on the slab label should tell you what you need to know as far as attributing the variety and all that.  I have found this site to be helpful in attributing coins and figuring out if they're rare or not as well:

http://www.wildwinds.com/

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful Peter......I'm still learning a lot myself here!

Cheers!
~Tom

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I've never gone into really high-grade / high value pennies in the time that I collected them. I have a couple of AU55/AU58 (I think) Indian heads and a bunch of Lincoln Wheats and Memorials, mostly around MS66 or MS67, just because that's what I grew up with and I like 'em. The 1943 Steel Cents are great. They could be had in MS67 for about $50 each 10 years ago though I don't know what they go for now. Those have some fun history behind them.

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25 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

I think it's a very nice coin.  However, as I'm still a newbie myself, I am unsure of the price.  I've noticed that many denarii raw go for about $50 to $100, so I myself would say that $250 is a little high.  I think that you may be paying a premium for having the coin in a slab with that sale, but I could be wrong.  If I were you, I'd do some pricing research before making the purchase.  The information on the slab label should tell you what you need to know as far as attributing the variety and all that.  I have found this site to be helpful in attributing coins and figuring out if they're rare or not as well:

http://www.wildwinds.com/

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful Peter......I'm still learning a lot myself here!

Cheers!
~Tom

Thanks Tom, I will check out the site.  I have only been looking at these slabs because I wasnt sure if there were a lot of fakes out there and how to determine if one is a fake lol. I am wet behind the ears with these coins. That price does seem a little steep, I veered away from that particular coin. Well if you ever happen to pick up any coins, please share! Been nice talking with you Tom.

-Peter

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5 hours ago, BipolarBaby said:

HOLY COW MAN! I am looking at a few of them now and boy oh boy are they sexy. The gold tone of it is something extraordinary I tell ya. I think I have to own one of these now Tom! WHAT DID YOU DO TO ME!?!?!?!? hahaha. I like your idea on collecting the silver coinage from each empress. It's really hard to tell where to start with these coins. I think its really all about preference, just like anything else.  There is a lot of varieties of each coin too as you probably already know. I think for me I am going to start checking more of these gold ones out. Expensive but I wouldn't mind selling off some silver bullion for one of those gold bad boys. 

As far as starting your collection, what do you think about this coin? Price fair you think? I might snag it..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Roman-Empire-Empress-Faustina-Sr-Silver-Denarii-Ancient-Coin-NGC-XF-Slabbed/311800004255?hash=item4898ba7e9f:g:oKYAAOSw0j9ZUuTO

 

I think it amazing they don't care to identify it by catalog number. They want $250 for it and can't even be bothered to supply a proper ID? Bah. Looks like draped bust right, obverse legend DIVA FAVSTINA, reverse legend AETERNITAS, looks like Juno standing left raising hand and holding scepter, no SC, no exergue; probably Aorta 106). Probably Sear 4574, which is RIC 344. I think the Wildwinds entry has the wrong Sear number because 4568 is a gold quinarius.

There is no way I give them $250 for it. No wonder they didn't want to catalog ID it. If they did that, it would make it harder to find out that they wanted too much for it. I'd pay $130-160. Maybe being part of this Golden Age Hoard confers some value, like shipwreck coins from the Atocha or somesuch. Maybe on the other hand it's just a marketing gimmick to get an extra hundred bucks by people who will just assign value to that designation.

Does look real. One variety of common cast counterfeits is rather good, with the expected shadowing from devices. By and large, denarii of this period run $60-90 unless exceptionally rare, but certification does suggest something of a premium.

You're right, the gold is very spendy. I don't have any. I would be very careful of potential forgeries in aurei.

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21 hours ago, BipolarBaby said:

Good stuff Tom, I have my eye on one of those already hehehe. I'm hoping one like it will be around when I'm willing to spend the money. This recent buying binge has to come to an end soon or I'm gonna end up at the poor house! Fortunately though, the prices seem reasonable for coins that are so ancient. I honestly would have imagined these coins to be unattainable as the value would be ridiculous. Apparently they're more common than I thought? That's another part I'm still not close to sure about - how rare are these coins?

Ancient coins are much more affordable than people might think. Common late Roman Imperial bronzes often go for $12-15, with silver from $35-85. Greek stuff is spendier, reflecting scarcity and greater antiquity, as is Roman stuff. Roman provincial coinage can vary a lot, but there's a lot of that out there as well.

I think demand is one reason for the ancients' lower costs. The other is the knowledge it takes to attribute them properly. Some of the references are very expensive and there is no such thing as a fully exhaustive reference (though some are excellent). Dealers often just aren't willing to spend the time for proper attribution.

If you collect a lot of ancient bronzes, you'll get very sick of Gallienus, Diocletian, Constantine, Constantius II, and a few others. I like coins of Julian II "the Apostate." I also like second century stuff, especially the orichalcum issues (a sort of brass used in some big coins). Ancient commemoratives, barbarous radiates, usurper issues...I have a rather nice piece of Magnentius that looks much better now that I blew the bronze disease off it. Came out about as well as it could considering it looked like someone had splattered aquamarine blobs on it.

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3 minutes ago, JKK said:

I think it amazing they don't care to identify it by catalog number. They want $250 for it and can't even be bothered to supply a proper ID? Bah. Looks like draped bust right, obverse legend DIVA FAVSTINA, reverse legend AETERNITAS, looks like Juno standing left raising hand and holding scepter, no SC, no exergue; probably Aorta 106). Probably Sear 4574, which is RIC 344. I think the Wildwinds entry has the wrong Sear number because 4568 is a gold quinarius.

There is no way I give them $250 for it. No wonder they didn't want to catalog ID it. If they did that, it would make it harder to find out that they wanted too much for it. I'd pay $130-160. Maybe being part of this Golden Age Hoard confers some value, like shipwreck coins from the Atocha or somesuch. Maybe on the other hand it's just a marketing gimmick to get an extra hundred bucks by people who will just assign value to that designation.

Does look real. One variety of common cast counterfeits is rather good, with the expected shadowing from devices. By and large, denarii of this period run $60-90 unless exceptionally rare, but certification does suggest something of a premium.

You're right, the gold is very spendy. I don't have any. I would be very careful of potential forgeries in aurei.

its funny you say a shipwreck coin like the atocha because I have one of those. Probably one of my favorite coins. Yea the premium is steep on these, and I feel like all the research in the world wont give me an actual fair ballpark figure.  I havent come across any web sites yet with price guides and such, and like you said, NGC doesnt supply any info on the coin. 

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3 minutes ago, BipolarBaby said:

its funny you say a shipwreck coin like the atocha because I have one of those. Probably one of my favorite coins. Yea the premium is steep on these, and I feel like all the research in the world wont give me an actual fair ballpark figure.  I havent come across any web sites yet with price guides and such, and like you said, NGC doesnt supply any info on the coin. 

There aren't very many price guides on ancients. Best one can usually do is search Worthpoint or Ebay's sold listings.

Kind of surprised me that NGC didn't offer a catalog attribution. They probably have their reasons, but if they did not, the dealer should have. Failure to supply one doesn't send a good signal to me. Full identification is ultimately a seller responsibility; I'm not very receptive to dealer whines of "look at the slab, it'll tell you."

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2 minutes ago, JKK said:

There aren't very many price guides on ancients. Best one can usually do is search Worthpoint or Ebay's sold listings.

Kind of surprised me that NGC didn't offer a catalog attribution. They probably have their reasons, but if they did not, the dealer should have. Failure to supply one doesn't send a good signal to me. Full identification is ultimately a seller responsibility; I'm not very receptive to dealer whines of "look at the slab, it'll tell you."

You know, my skepticism was the same about NGC not supplying the info, as they should if their grading it right? How can one go about grading the coin with no info on it to back it? Then I thought,"it's NGC... they wouldnt make a mistake like that would they?" I wonder if there's someone I could contact about this, maybe if I just called them up? haha

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25 minutes ago, BipolarBaby said:

You know, my skepticism was the same about NGC not supplying the info, as they should if their grading it right? How can one go about grading the coin with no info on it to back it? Then I thought,"it's NGC... they wouldnt make a mistake like that would they?" I wonder if there's someone I could contact about this, maybe if I just called them up? haha

I think they can probably assess authenticity without a precise attribution, but to me it would seem part of the expected value. I'm careful what I say here because this is their lounge and one should be courteous to hosts, but I do think the value of slabbing ancients would improve with solid catalog IDs as part of the label and service.

I myself have never once sent in a coin for slabbing, so I admit not knowing much about it.

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