Incuse images?? Understanding the DDO/DDR ETC.ETC. Help.

[Rob1983]

I understan the seperation of characters. The separation of serifs and so for. But i dont understand the incuse images ddo guarantee or bust?? Any an all help very much appreciated.. Thanks in advance...

[JKK]

I can't figure out what you want to know. Incuse images are devices that are sunken into a coin rather than raised. A DDO is a double die obverse, a condition caused when the die is made. I don't know anything about a guarantee or bust.

[Just Bob]

Can you provide a link to a page where you found these terms? A little context might help us decipher.

[KarenHolcomb]

Rob, are you talking about Doubling of the Design areas? Like on the '09 Lincoln's and the State Quarters? Cause those are actually the only DD's that I CAN see.

[Rob1983]

On 3/1/2019 at 9:55 AM, JKK said:

I can't figure out what you want to know. Incuse images are devices that are sunken into a coin rather than raised. A DDO is a double die obverse, a condition caused when the die is made. I don't know anything about a guarantee or bust.

Im refeering to a incuse image on a DDO. AND wether or not besidess the doubling does seeing the incuse image that in it self give 100% a GUARANTEE its a ddo or BUST nothing at all. To be more specific lets say a 1972 US Cent beleived to be a DDO but also shows a incused area between the bottom of lincolns bowtie till just below his chin in complete 100% detail its just incused all design elements of the bowtie. Bowtie knot etc along with his neck and. Bottom chin area are there. So whats does that incused area prove if anything at all. And if not a DDO how did it get there since its incused???

[Mohawk]

30 minutes ago, Rob1983 said:

Im refeering to a incuse image on a DDO. AND wether or not besidess the doubling does seeing the incuse image that in it self give 100% a GUARANTEE its a ddo or BUST nothing at all. To be more specific lets say a 1972 US Cent beleived to be a DDO but also shows a incused area between the bottom of lincolns bowtie till just below his chin in complete 100% detail its just incused all design elements of the bowtie. Bowtie knot etc along with his neck and. Bottom chin area are there. So whats does that incused area prove if anything at all. And if not a DDO how did it get there since its incused???

I really do not understand your inquiry, and likely none of us will until you post a photograph.  Written or verbal descriptions without photos are pretty much useless in discerning anything about coins.  If you can post photos, we may be able to help you out.

[Just Bob]

If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like you are seeing an area just in front of Lincoln's neck which looks like a mirror image of the design, but is incuse. An incuse area on the field of a coin would presumably have to result from a corresponding raised area on the die. I have looked at all of the classes of hub doubling, and can not find one that I think would likely cause a raised area on the die. Without seeing the coin in hand, or at least good pictures, I would have to guess that it was caused by either an extremely worn die, on which metal fatigue has caused a "lip" on the edge of the design, or maybe some other form of strike doubling. I'm not even sure that what I described is possible, but I can't see any way for it to have been caused by hub doubling of the die. Hopefully,  someone with more knowledge of the minting process can shed some light on this.

So, to answer your question: I don't believe that seeing an incuse image on a coin is a guarantee of it being a doubled die.

 

By the way, when you use the word "bust" in reference to a coin, most of us assume that you are talking about the portrait on the obverse, which is called a "bust."  I think that might have contributed to the contusion. 

[Rob1983]

On 3/4/2019 at 12:34 AM, Just Bob said:

If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like you are seeing an area just in front of Lincoln's neck which looks like a mirror image of the design, but is incuse. An incuse area on the field of a coin would presumably have to result from a corresponding raised area on the die. I have looked at all of the classes of hub doubling, and can not find one that I think would likely cause a raised area on the die. Without seeing the coin in hand, or at least good pictures, I would have to guess that it was caused by either an extremely worn die, on which metal fatigue has caused a "lip" on the edge of the design, or maybe some other form of strike doubling. I'm not even sure that what I described is possible, but I can't see any way for it to have been caused by hub doubling of the die. Hopefully,  someone with more knowledge of the minting process can shed some light on this.

So, to answer your question: I don't believe that seeing an incuse image on a coin is a guarantee of it being a doubled die.

 

By the way, when you use the word "bust" in reference to a coin, most of us assume that you are talking about the portrait on the obverse, which is called a "bust."  I think that might have contributed to the contusion. 

 

[Six Mile Rick]

Many times everyone really looks too hard at coins trying to see the doubling. It's either mechanical or just not there. When you do get doubling you will surely know it without guessing. A real good way to check yourself is by getting a set of cherry pickers guide. Then you can match the coin to the pic.

[Six Mile Rick]

Rob,

 I have a group of Kennedy's to send in some day. I am just not ready to get into the Kennedy coins yet. I understand you wanting to be sure as the cost per coin is now at $40+ each. That is hard to swallow if you bust. Recently sent in 1969 and 1970 dimes. Waiting on grades.

I have a few in my clad dime set already that I sell from for the 1970-D dimes; FS-801, FS-802, and VP-003. The variety additions in my sets is a fun search and surely keeps me busy for the search when I get to old coin shops. I like to go through coins at old coin stores that have been waiting for years for someone to find them.

Enjoy Collecting,

Rick

 

[Six Mile Rick]

On 3/3/2019 at 8:43 PM, Rob1983 said:

Im refeering to a incuse image on a DDO. AND wether or not besidess the doubling does seeing the incuse image that in it self give 100% a GUARANTEE its a ddo or BUST nothing at all. To be more specific lets say a 1972 US Cent beleived to be a DDO but also shows a incused area between the bottom of lincolns bowtie till just below his chin in complete 100% detail its just incused all design elements of the bowtie. Bowtie knot etc along with his neck and. Bottom chin area are there. So whats does that incused area prove if anything at all. And if not a DDO how did it get there since its incused???

I think it would help if you understand how a coin press works. The dies wear out over use and get sloppy. This creates a double image on the coin which is mechanical doubling and the die is trashed when this starts to appear.

[Rob1983]

 I understand how the coin press works the image above what is the incused area from how was it caused???

[Conder101]

I don't see an incuse area.

[Rob1983]

14 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I don't see an incuse area.

The area between his BUST and his chin. That's the area in refering too. Is it just another part of it being a ddo or is it something else? Thanks in advance.

[Six Mile Rick]

Well -- anything is possible so trash from the press wearing or other obstacle pushed between the dies..

My guess??

[Rob1983]

On 3/10/2019 at 3:46 AM, Conder101 said:

I don't see an incuse area.

Ok so the area circled that clearly shows the partial knot an bowtie what caused it how did it get there? Im trying to fully understand this thanks again