Bidding in a Coin Auction

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, USAuPzlBxBob said:

So, $11,400 + BP (17%).

No, it was $9500 hammer + 20% buyer’s premium, for a total of $11,400.

If I had not been including the buyer’s premium when I posted the $11,400 price realized, I would have written “$11,400, excluding the buyer’s premium” and not “$11,400 including buyer’s premium”.

[physics-fan3.14]

5 hours ago, USAuPzlBxBob said:

I'm not going to join HA just to log in and maybe see what the hammer price of the coin was.

Anyone want to reveal what it sold for?

Joining HA is one of the best things you can do as a modern collector. Their auction archives are absolutely unmatched. 

Anyways, this coin sold for $11.4k - and that is after their bidders premium. 

[Mohawk]

12 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Joining HA is one of the best things you can do as a modern collector. Their auction archives are absolutely unmatched. 

Anyways, this coin sold for $11.4k - and that is after their bidders premium. 

That is undoubtedly true. I am member even with my aversion to auctions.  Their archives truly are unmatched, and that's why I'm there.

[Jade Collection]

Thats too bad physics fan! This would have been a great addition to your PL collection!  I agree that HA auction archives are unmatched! I collect world crowns and love going through their archives!!

[USAuPzlBxBob]

On 2/1/2019 at 5:54 PM, Walkerfan said:

Mark is right.  With Heritage live by proxy, the winner's max bid could have been 20,000 for all he knows.

The reality is, someone else wanted that coin a LOT more than Jason.  They made it clear from the very start, pre-auction.  Failure was not an option for them, and everyone else was "put on notice."

Essentially, they were really smart with their auction strategy!  (suggesting $20,000 is… well, just a nice throwout number, to soothe this thread's participants)
 

Mark made the point earlier that the coin, being PL, could go for MS 63 money if it were non-PL, which would be $12,100 (NGC PriceGuide)

In the HA catalog for the other coins in that auction earlier that day, this coin was relatively inexpensive.  But it showed really well when perusing the overall catalog.  It was a standout… World Class!

The coin was going to be pricey, no question about it!
 

Jason stopped at $8,500. (that's $10,200 when the BP (20%) is added on)  The coin went for $1000 above that last bid of Jason's, which may have been standard-practice incrementing when things get that high.

Based on the pre-auction strong-arming, if Jason really wanted it, if he really was going to be a "player," he should have recalibrated its worth, and been willing to go to $11,500 ($13,800 when the BP(20%) is added on) and licked his "financial wounds" later, if he won.  (but enjoy the "spoils of war" and "battlefield victory"  … the coin)

Then if $1000 incrementing is indeed the case for coins in this price range (an assumption of mine), the next bid would have had to have been $12,500, which, when the BP is added on, amounts to $15,000.

That would have taken the breath away for any other bidders. (another assumption of mine, but pushed to the limit, hardball, coin collecting rules of engagement)

If Jason then still lost the auction after a maximum bid of $11,500, he would know that the coin was actually made of unobtanium, and that's Life.

My only other curiosity would be, could Jason have bid differently, rather than work up to his final bid, so as to ruffle the other bidder(s)?

[MarkFeld]

37 minutes ago, USAuPzlBxBob said:

The reality is, someone else wanted that coin a LOT more than Jason.  They made it clear from the very start, pre-auction.  Failure was not an option for them, and everyone else was "put on notice."

Essentially, they were really smart with their auction strategy!  (suggesting $20,000 is… well, just a nice throwout number, to soothe this thread's participants)
 

Mark made the point earlier that the coin, being PL, could go for MS 63 money if it were non-PL, which would be $12,100 (NGC PriceGuide) 

In the HA catalog for the other coins in that auction earlier that day, this coin was relatively inexpensive.  But it showed really well when perusing the overall catalog.  It was a standout… World Class!

The coin was going to be pricey, no question about it!
 

Jason stopped at $8,500. (that's $10,200 when the BP (20%) is added on)  The coin went for $1000 above that last bid of Jason's, which may have been standard-practice incrementing when things get that high.

Based on the pre-auction strong-arming, if Jason really wanted it, if he really was going to be a "player," he should have recalibrated its worth, and been willing to go to $11,500 ($13,800 when the BP(20%) is added on) and licked his "financial wounds" later, if he won.  (but enjoy the "spoils of war" and "battlefield victory"  … the coin)

Then if $1000 incrementing is indeed the case for coins in this price range (an assumption of mine), the next bid would have had to have been $12,500, which, when the BP is added on, amounts to $15,000.

That would have taken the breath away for any other bidders. (another assumption of mine, but pushed to the limit, hardball, coin collecting rules of engagement)

If Jason then still lost the auction after a maximum bid of $11,500, he would know that the coin was actually made of unobtanium, and that's Life.

My only other curiosity would be, could Jason have bid differently, rather than work up to his final bid, so as to ruffle the other bidder(s)?

A few points:

I don’t agree that the pre-bidding necessarily put anyone on notce or was a smart strategy. In fact, we don’t even know whether the highest pre-bidder ended up being the winning bidder.

i believe that the bidding increments would have been $500, not $1000.

i didn’t make the point that “the coin, being PL, could for 63 money if it were non-PL...”.  I had written “The prior prices realized you see are for non-PL MS62 examples and this one was PL. It essentially went for strong non-PL 63 money.”  In other words, as a 62PL, it brought a price that equated with strong non-PL 63 money.

I disagree that the pre-bidding dictated that Jason needed to recalibrate the coin’s worth. Sometimes the high pre-bid ends up being the winning bid or very close to it. Other times, it gets blown out of the water.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Jason consulted with you before the auction. (he mentioned that)

You'd seen what the coin looked like. (and not blown up, just from the catalog, perusing mode)

It was an eye catching stunner.  What did you think the coin would go for? (just curious)  Did the final hammer surprise you?

It looks like there were 3 bidders, bidding up $500 per bid:  so $8,500 (Jason), $9,000, $9,500. (or two bidders, and the other bidder upped his game by leaping to $9,500 instead of $9,000)

Btw, Jason mentioned a "cut bid."  What is that?  An in-between bid?  (Between $8,000 and $9,000, for example?)

[MarkFeld]

3 minutes ago, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Jason consulted with you before the auction. (he mentioned that)

You'd seen what the coin looked like. (and not blown up, just from the catalog, perusing mode)

It was an eye catching stunner.  What did you think the coin would go for? (just curious)  Did the final hammer surprise you?

It looks like there were 3 bidders, bidding up $500 per bid:  so $8,500 (Jason), $9,000, $9,500. (or two bidders, and the other bidder upped his game by leaping to $9,500 instead of $9,000)

Btw, Jason mentioned a "cut bid."  What is that?  An in-between bid?  (Between $8,000 and $9,000, for example?)

I had not come up with a pre-sale estimate.

A “cut bid” is one which is less than the next increment would call for - usually for half the amount of the increment. Depending upon the company and auctioneer, a bidder might or might not be allowed to bid on the lot again if he cuts the bid and is then outbid.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Just now, MarkFeld said:

I had not come up with a pre-sale estimate.

A “cut bid” is one which is less than the next increment would call for - usually for half the amount of the increment. Depending upon the company and auctioneer, a bidder might or might not be allowed to bid on the lot again if he cuts the bid and is then outbid.

Wow.  Tricky stuff.  And all of this takes place in less than a minute.  Incredible.

Thank you, for your replies.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

One more question round, for physics-fan3.14 (Jason)…

Do you wish you'd gone higher?  Instead of the $8,500… had gone $9,000?  Even $10,000?

Even if you'd then be buried in the coin, it sounds like you are collecting to never sell.

And the coin never wavered in desirability for you, and you had two months of consideration and pre-planning invested in it.

With all the dust settled, BP included in your out of pocket expense, at what point would you have regretted a win, now with 20/20 hindsight of how much you maybe miss now having won it?

(Please don't take these questions as salt-in-the-wound.  This is a coin chat-board, after all.  You're not out a fortune, you just didn't pay more than you wanted to, at the time.)

[History&Coins]

Sorry for your loss.  Actually this item popped up on my email notices or maybe it was featured somewhere.  A very pretty coin, I don't know the history behind the Bechlers gold dollars other than they were made after finding gold in Georgia.  One day if I ever get rich, I'd love to own a few territorial gold pieces.  Usually I don't look for them in P/L unc tho. Your auction experiences are similar to mine as there was one critical coin I needed for my collection.  It had been recently sold in a famous collection and I bid on it there but using a representative that screwed up all my bids.  

Everyone said that the Lissner PR were outrageous but I was prepared to go a lot higher for this piece.  Prebids were low which led to a false hope but in the end one other guy, whom I suspect of just chasing all high slabs, outbid me for the piece.  Unfortunately there is one unc known to exist , it 's actually quite famous, and everything else for all other dates, the whole type in fact, in is lower circ grades

[physics-fan3.14]

On 2/3/2019 at 3:03 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

One more question round, for physics-fan3.14 (Jason)…

Do you wish you'd gone higher?  Instead of the $8,500… had gone $9,000?  Even $10,000?

Even if you'd then be buried in the coin, it sounds like you are collecting to never sell.

And the coin never wavered in desirability for you, and you had two months of consideration and pre-planning invested in it.

With all the dust settled, BP included in your out of pocket expense, at what point would you have regretted a win, now with 20/20 hindsight of how much you maybe miss now having won it?

(Please don't take these questions as salt-in-the-wound.  This is a coin chat-board, after all.  You're not out a fortune, you just didn't pay more than you wanted to, at the time.)

Nah, no problem at all. 

I do wish that I had been able to go higher. The problem was, I just did not have the money to go any higher. You cannot put this on a credit card, so you have to have the money available. I had raised $10k, because I honestly thought before the auction that it would go for between $8k-$10k with the juice. So, when the bid went higher than that it wasn't really a matter of not wanting to go higher, it really was not being able to. 

This is the sort of coin that is so unique, so rare, and so special that you aren't "buried" in it no matter how much you pay. I would have had no intention of ever selling it. 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Good answer.  Thank you.

Bob

[Conder101]

On 2/3/2019 at 2:45 PM, MarkFeld said:

a bidder might or might not be allowed to bid on the lot again if he cuts the bid and is then outbid.

And if they are allowed to bid again, they are not allowed to do another cut bid on that lot, full increments only.

On 2/3/2019 at 2:47 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Wow.  Tricky stuff.  And all of this takes place in less than a minute.  Incredible.

But once you get used to it, you start to feel that it is slow.  Or at least I find them that way.  I have been to several auctions at the EAC conventions where the auctions sometimes run at 3 lots per minute.  20 seconds from open to close.

[jgenn]

Ok, I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here, after really looking at what was being chased in this auction.  I understand the "conditional rarity" of a proof-like rare coin and I also understand the drive to add a new and unusual coin to a custom type set. However, the visual appeal of "proof-like" would seem to be an important part of this.  What visual appeal would really be added to such a basic design?  With the exception of that starfish symbol, it's just a bunch of letters and numbers.  Surely, you will be able to use those substantial funds to acquire a rare PL coin where the mirror-like surface complements the frosty devices of a handsome, if not downright beautiful design.