How to prove a proof?

[Travis Hale]

I tried all the normal test about it, but is this a genuine? I appreciate your advice!

 

ill post another I have that is toned same mint & year

[JKK]

Looks to me polished, maybe even lacquered, with pretty obvious abrasive marks. Definitely not natural. Plus, that spot at 8:00 on the obverse looks like a jewelry bail. I had to guess, I'd guess this was bailed and polished to a horrific shine. Which is a major drag, because the overall level of wear is very low. If not messed with, it'd be a very nice example.

[Mohawk]

I'm going to say polished as well.  Definitely not natural, as JKK said.

[Just Bob]

If you are asking, "Is it a proof?," the answer is no. There were no proof Morgans made in New Orleans, or at any of the branch mints,  in 1881.

 

 

[Travis Hale]

I researched & there were two bags transferred to The treasure vault in the back part & those coins were released in the 60’s. Although, I’m definitely a guy that believes if something is too good to be true it usually is. They minted right under 1000 of them before being shut down in 1902. I’m getting a forensic magnifier soon & I’ll know for sure. Thank you....

[MAULEMALL]

That's just a shame..

[MarkFeld]

5 hours ago, Travis Hale said:

I researched & there were two bags transferred to The treasure vault in the back part & those coins were released in the 60’s. Although, I’m definitely a guy that believes if something is too good to be true it usually is. They minted right under 1000 of them before being shut down in 1902. I’m getting a forensic magnifier soon & I’ll know for sure. Thank you....

Proof coins were not stored or distributed in bags. Also, as already mentioned, the coin you posted is from New Orleans and the vast majority of Proof coins were produced in Philadelphia (without mintmarks). You have a polished business strike, which bears no resemblance to a Proof. That won’t change, no matter how much you wish, otherwise.

[MarkFeld]

8 hours ago, Just Bob said:

If you are asking, "Is it a proof?," the answer is no. There were no proof Morgans made in New Orleans, or at any of the branch mints,  in 1881.

 

 

For purposes of accuracy, there are a small number of branch mint examples recognized as “Proof”, as well as “Specimen”. Some of them are controversial, but the coin posted in this thread is clearly neither a Proof nor a Specimen example.

[Travis Hale]

I believe you absolutely, but there were what were called branch proof coins & New Orleans was ordered to produce some which they did right under 1000 before being closed in 1902. There are some that exist found in the ‘60s when some silver act was lifted. I would hope to see one one day, but I’m not crazy enough to believe I have the one... just trying to learn how to prove these things. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate you...

[MarkFeld]

29 minutes ago, Travis Hale said:

I believe you absolutely, but there were what were called branch proof coins & New Orleans was ordered to produce some which they did right under 1000 before being closed in 1902. There are some that exist found in the ‘60s when some silver act was lifted. I would hope to see one one day, but I’m not crazy enough to believe I have the one... just trying to learn how to prove these things. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate you...

Please post a link to an article that states that “right under 1000” branch mint Proofs were produced by the New Orleans mint “before being closed in 1902”. I do not believe there is such an article to be found and that mint was not closed in 1902. You sound as if you misunderstood something you read.

[Mohawk]

2 hours ago, Travis Hale said:

I believe you absolutely, but there were what were called branch proof coins & New Orleans was ordered to produce some which they did right under 1000 before being closed in 1902. There are some that exist found in the ‘60s when some silver act was lifted. I would hope to see one one day, but I’m not crazy enough to believe I have the one... just trying to learn how to prove these things. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate you...

There is a lot that is incorrect about what you said.  First off, New Orleans was closed in 1909, not 1902, and there are no records of any 1909-O branch mint proofs.  Secondly, no Morgan Dollars were struck in 1909 at all, at New Orleans or elsewhere, so there was no Morgan Dollar from New Orleans' last year, proof or otherwise.   Thirdly, your coin is an 1881-O, not a 1902-O, so there's a 21 year gap between your Morgan and the supposed date of the striking of the branch mint proof coins you mention.  Where did you get your information regarding this, because I am honestly stumped as to where you could have gotten such a high degree of misinformation.  As far as I know, there are some New Orleans branch mint proof Morgan Dollars for 1879-O, 1883-O and 1895-O and examples of these dates have all been certified as proofs by the major services. 

[Travis Hale]

https://www.numismaticnews.net/article/branch-proofs-mysterious-and-valuable

[Travis Hale]

I was wrong of 1902. It was 1909 closing. PCGS also talks about the two-beer Morgan from New Orleans. 

[MarkFeld]

4 hours ago, Travis Hale said:

I believe you absolutely, but there were what were called branch proof coins & New Orleans was ordered to produce some which they did right under 1000 before being closed in 1902. There are some that exist found in the ‘60s when some silver act was lifted. I would hope to see one one day, but I’m not crazy enough to believe I have the one... just trying to learn how to prove these things. Thank you for your advice. I appreciate you...

The article you linked says nothing about “right under 1000” branch mint Proofs being produced. And, as already mentioned, the N. O. Mint did not close the year you first mentioned. Additionally, I didn’t see any connection mentioned between Proofs and “some silver act”. 

We are not picking on you - just trying to encourage you to avoid posting misinformation. Have fun.

[Travis Hale]

I agree, I shouldn’t shoot off the top of my head, lol. I’ll make sure to be accurate. Merry Christmas 

[JKK]

Here's a tip you may find proactive, Travis--and I mean it as sincere help rather than any form of taking to task: rather than look for reasons why it's rare, special, and cool, look for the mundane explanations. If no mundane explanation tells a plausible story, then maybe it is rare/special/cool; most excellent.

It is good to check out coins and research--that is how we learn--but I think long term you will have more fun and less disappointment if you start off with trying to find all the reasons the coin isn't a big deal. That will be very, very educational--and when the only viable conclusion does happen to be a big deal, you will probably feel you stand on firm ground. It will be very satisfying when it turns out that way.

It will also tend to improve your helpers' enthusiasm, because we regulars spend a lot of time disappointing people, and that's never fun. I for one wish that every coin posted was this fantastic find and that I got to be the one to tell someone so. Usually it is not, and saying so is not the most fun thing. So if you've ruled out as many possible explanations as is in your power, that'll be a favor to us mostly volunteer numismatists who (as I reckon I'm not alone in the above sentiments) very much want to delight rather than disappoint.

[RWB]

The article you quote is warmed over bologna. No branch mint had a medal press, and that type was used to make legitimate proof coins. When a writer says something like "lesser quality" what they mean is that it's shiny but not really a proof because it fails to meet the basic criteria for a real proof coin.

The coin in the first post is just a polished, possibly plated, novelty - likely used in a belt buckle or some other tourist bait junk. It might not even be a silver dollar -- the "O" mintmark looks very odd.

Buy a copy of the Guide Book of United States Coins and start reading. After a while, you will have learned enough to better understand articles and then begin some meaningful research.

[Numismatic, A.A.S.]

The basic importance of a simple, free Red Book can not be understated. Available for free from a library, coin club, for just postage from the ANA and/or garage sale for a dollar or eBay for a dollar. Online resources for free on several sites, just think about the Newman Numismatic Portal and the unbelievable amount of knowledge there, a pillar and amazing source for everyone. There are dedicated people on this NGC Chat site which have an enormous amount of patience with others...I SALUTE YOU!!  To the OP..."once you start reading anything about coins it gets you interested and excited to know why and how it happened. It is so rewarding and FUN, let's start by reading Q. David Bowers book (any) on Morgan Silver Dollars and let your Imagination and heart explore further..."....peace

[geat]

Hi,the best thing you can ever do is ask for advice!!!

 Any coin ever struck will show a difference within the whole blank(its not a blank it's a planchet but really do you care)

 

First buy books

Second BUY MORE BOOKS.

If I placed flour on a table about an inch deep and dropped a flat stone in the centre,and lifted it carefully,the small fissures radiating out would be similar to what would be a UNC cartwheel coin,without the coin being tampered with.This is caused by the pressure on the blank.load more blah blah 

HOWEVER polish your stones(no rubbing boyos)you will see the difference,less friction less fisures

If you polish the field you will get mirror BEAUTIFUL MIRROR against a sublime frosting.

ALWAYS LOOK FOR DIRECTIONAL SCRATCHES ACROSS field

However give NGC a coin at your peril KNOW WHAT YOU GRADE!!!!!!!!

[Conder101]

10 hours ago, geat said:

First buy books

Second BUY MORE BOOKS.

Third READ the books. 

[Travis Hale]

We all eat crow some days

[Conder101]

What has that image got to do with this discussion?

[jgrinz]

3 hours ago, Conder101 said:

What has that image got to do with this discussion?

Nothing  - welcome to TravisHale World … Love him as my "brother" but his thought process is a little flighty

Reminds me of myself a few years back before meds  :-)

 

[MAULEMALL]

12 hours ago, jgrinz said:

Nothing  - welcome to TravisHale World … Love him as my "brother" but his thought process is a little flighty

Reminds me of myself a few years back before meds  :-)

 

You know the more I look at that Morgan.... I gotta say that it sure looks hammered....

 

Arm and Hammered..

[BipolarBaby]

I will only add one thing to this post - whoever tried "wizzing" this coin, did a pretty decent job of it. Normally the mirror image is much poorer. Anyone who has collected Morgans will tell you thinks is a highly polished/cleaned coin.