1878 CC Morgan

[aangelcg]

Hi everyone, I picked up this 1878 CC Morgan and I'm wondering if it is worth sending in for grading. Obviously it's not in perfect, but I think it was undergraded by the seller. Have any thoughts on it?

[coinsandmedals]

Morgan Dollars are not exactly my area, but if I had to guess it would likely grade as a XF-45 or AU-50 due to the lack of luster and overall impression (assuming it hasn't been cleaned, which may be the case here). It seems dull in the pictures. I personally would not go through the added cost of submitting. With that said, I am also the kind of person that will submit a coin worth $10 just because I like the look of it. 

[aangelcg]

I think the flip it's in makes it look a little dull. I also took the photos with my iphone and a table lamp. Here's another photo with the flash on for comparison. 

[Conder101]

Hate to say it but it looks worse in the new picture.  But the greater angle and the uneven lighting caused be the flash are not helping it.

[Alex in PA.]

An amateur like me would send it in.  I like Carson City coins and I like NGC.

Your call and good luck with the grade.   

[JKK]

I don't see any way it gets less than 40. 50 was my first thought.

[Just Bob]

I think that a lot of times we look at coins like this and form immediate opinions without considering the different circumstances surrounding each coin and its "journey through life," so to speak. We see things like the fact that is has little or no toning, the slight difference in color of the fields and the protected areas around the letters or stars, or maybe a few parallel hairlines/scratches when viewed at an angle, and we slap a "CLEANED!!" label on it and move on to the next victim. That is unfair to the coin and its owner, because it assumes that every coin ever made has gone through the same set of situations from the time it is minted until it gets its picture posted on the forum. Sure, this coin could have been dipped, wiped, cleaned, or whatever sometime last year, but it is also possible that it was removed from circulation and stored, either intentionally or by chance, in an environment that prevented it from toning or otherwise changing in appearance during all this time. As an example, I have a seated quarter that I bought from Bowers and Merena in the 80s as a VF30. It was basically untoned, and had most likely been dipped at some point, since white coins were all the rage years ago. I placed it in an inert plastic bag and heat sealed it. It has remained unchanged for over thirty years.

So, after all that, my opinion of your coin is that it is XF, but I think it would get a details grade for cleaning if sent in.

[coinsandmedals]

1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

I think that a lot of times we look at coins like this and form immediate opinions without considering the different circumstances surrounding each coin and its "journey through life," so to speak. We see things like the fact that is has little or no toning, the slight difference in color of the fields and the protected areas around the letters or stars, or maybe a few parallel hairlines/scratches when viewed at an angle, and we slap a "CLEANED!!" label on it and move on to the next victim. That is unfair to the coin and its owner, because it assumes that every coin ever made has gone through the same set of situations from the time it is minted until it gets its picture posted on the forum. Sure, this coin could have been dipped, wiped, cleaned, or whatever sometime last year, but it is also possible that it was removed from circulation and stored, either intentionally or by chance, in an environment that prevented it from toning or otherwise changing in appearance during all this time. As an example, I have a seated quarter that I bought from Bowers and Merena in the 80s as a VF30. It was basically untoned, and had most likely been dipped at some point, since white coins were all the rage years ago. I placed it in an inert plastic bag and heat sealed it. It has remained unchanged for over thirty years.

So, after all that, my opinion of your coin is that it is XF, but I think it would get a details grade for cleaning if sent in.

I understand your point, but I do not necessarily think that responsibility lies upon those who are providing the solicited opinion. Grading coins based on digital pictures is very difficult and not entirely reliable. There are too many potential confounds (e.g. lighting, angle, equipment quality, photographer experience) that can directly influence how a coin is perceived and subsequently judged. The coin’s unique journey is something I consider when deciding if I want to purchase the coin but is not something that I necessarily consider when I am trying to judge its grade. That would add an entirely different level of subjectivity that would likely further convolute the grading topic for a novice collector. It may be beneficial to state the limitations of using the forum to estimate grade prior to providing an estimate. It seems years ago this was highlighted in a specific thread devoted to "guess the grade". What ever happened to that thread? 

[Just Bob]

When the number of posters dropped to just a handful, that forum was absorbed by one of the other ones - I think it went into the Newbie forum.

[coinsandmedals]

8 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

When the number of posters dropped to just a handful, that forum was absorbed by one of the other ones - I think it went into the Newbie forum.

Thank you! I had several inactive years and things have really changed. I miss the way these boards used to be. 

[Just Bob]

37 minutes ago, coinsandmedals said:

Thank you! I had several inactive years and things have really changed. I miss the way these boards used to be. 

Ditto. I was away for about 6 years myself. Lots of changes, and lots of former posters that are no longer here.

[Robert k Rodeheaver]

NGC would find 5 or 6 reasons for a details grade on that coin and just put cleaned or harshly cleaned on it! in my opinion any one of the first in a series in EF45 or above should go to NGC to be certified and to be sure its not a fake! lots of that stuff going on in Morgans these days!

[Alex in PA.]

18 hours ago, Robert k Rodeheaver said:

NGC would find 5 or 6 reasons for a details grade on that coin and just put cleaned or harshly cleaned on it! in my opinion any one of the first in a series in EF45 or above should go to NGC to be certified and to be sure its not a fake! lots of that stuff going on in Morgans these days!

I see where you feel it's been 'cleaned' but.  Why would a counterfeiter waste time and energy to manufacture an 1878 CC in EF or any grade?  There's hundreds of 78s in all grades.  The only CC I have ever been concerned with is the 79 and 89.  If you are going to do the deed you might be able to make a few thousand dollars before someone comes along an outs you but you won't make a million bucks counterfeiting Morgans.  Gold is where counterfeiting is.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Really low end, not really what a collector would looks for; will go details at any service, even ICG and Anacs, it doesn't even have a normal look, so may not be real.  I would eyeball the mint mark and then compare it to known varieties to see how it compares.  ICG or Anacs would run around $10 to certify, NGC/PCGS will cost a lot more for the verdict.  

[Alex in PA.]

1 hour ago, Nutmeg Coin said:

Really low end, not really what a collector would looks for; will go details at any service, even ICG and Anacs, it doesn't even have a normal look, so may not be real.  I would eyeball the mint mark and then compare it to known varieties to see how it compares.  ICG or Anacs would run around $10 to certify, NGC/PCGS will cost a lot more for the verdict.  

ANACS would be my choice.  I'm afraid ICG is a sore spot with me.

[Conder101]

On 10/3/2018 at 12:54 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Why would a counterfeiter waste time and energy to manufacture an 1878 CC in EF or any grade?

To make money why else.

 

On 10/3/2018 at 12:54 PM, Alex in PA. said:

There's hundreds of 78s in all grades.  The only CC I have ever been concerned with is the 79 and 89.  If you are going to do the deed you might be able to make a few thousand dollars before someone comes along an outs you

That's one of the reasons for making the lower end coins,  A high grade 79 CC or 89 CC is going to get a lot of close scrutiny and may not even be salable if it isn't slabbed.  So getting those thousands of dollars may be tough.  But the lower grade more common pieces are much more likely to be purchased raw by lower income collector willing to take a chance.  The counterfeiter can sell hundreds if not thousands of them because they won't get that same scrutiny.  Do you sell two or three at a few thousand apiece or hundreds at $100 apiece?  You want something really crazy, the Chinese counterfeiters are even making fake common 1950's Lincoln cents

[Alex in PA.]

5 hours ago, Conder101 said:

To make money why else.

 

That's one of the reasons for making the lower end coins,  A high grade 79 CC or 89 CC is going to get a lot of close scrutiny and may not even be salable if it isn't slabbed.  So getting those thousands of dollars may be tough.  But the lower grade more common pieces are much more likely to be purchased raw by lower income collector willing to take a chance.  The counterfeiter can sell hundreds if not thousands of them because they won't get that same scrutiny.  Do you sell two or three at a few thousand apiece or hundreds at $100 apiece?  You want something really crazy, the Chinese counterfeiters are even making fake common 1950's Lincoln cents

Never thought of it that way.  Thanks for the info.

[TON Collection]

1 minute ago, Alex in PA. said:

Never thought of it that way.  Thanks for the info.

 

2 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

Never thought of it that way.  Thanks for the info.

 Yeah I believe it the Chinese counterfeit I didn’t mean nothing bad About making a profit that came out the wrong way my bad

[Alex in PA.]

3 hours ago, BellaNathan said:

 

 Yeah I believe it the Chinese counterfeit I didn’t mean nothing bad About making a profit that came out the wrong way my bad

Not at all.  I never gave a thought of mass production vs quality.  Thanks for your input. 

[aangelcg]

Here's a much better photo of the same coin out of the flip with much better lighting.