I used to be concerned
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I collect early modern proofs 1936 and beyond. I think I have warned almost all of my numismatic local friends against Proof 70 coins at one time or another. Now here we go again; Proof 70 Deep and Ultra Cameo Ikes don't sell now even at the 6 and 7 hundred dollar level. Three or four didn't sell last Sunday and I wasn't watching today but I'm almost scared to look. A few years ago they were selling for 2 to 4 thousand dollars. Besides the fact that most of these have had a dip, very few are worthy of 70 grades given IMO. How can 70 graded coins have had a dip ? Yes I know there are a few that might pass as near perfect but I wonder how many registry folks have lost a thousand bucks or more on these. I would rather pay a premium for nice hand picked 69 Ultras that are visually identical to that registry grade at one tenth the price. Personally I really don't care that much for Ikes anyway but toned coins are attractive I think. I wonder how many of these coins the TPG's are going to have to take back. Remember if they are over graded NGC will not necessarily replace them. They may decide to pay Fair Market Value if that's okay with you ha ! Remember the PCGS Pf 70 1963 Lincoln they had to eat for lunch ? I would love to have been be a fly on the wall during that settlement. Of course not every coin I purchase is a good deal... that's not what I want. I want coins with great eye appeal for relative scarcity that I can be proud to own period.

And I'm no longer concerned. We're all big boys and girls now right ?

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totally agree with you numisport. I'd rather save a bunch of money and get a nice 69 than pay up for a 70. I still don't understand modern bullion collectors who want ms70/pf70s.

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Anyone concerned about losing value on what they buy should buy something else or not at all.

The "70" coinage described above is almost certain to lose even more value because it isn't numismatically competitive versus the alternatives and the collectible merits are out of line with the price..

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As they say  "Collect what you enjoy". It's a hobby --- Not a investment for profits. Enjoy the hobby and have fun with it.

 

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I am of the opinion that most registry players who chase "top pops," so that they can have the number one set, are not concerned about whether or not they will recoup their investment when they decide to sell. Either that, or they do not understand the concept of supply and demand. They either don't realize or don't care that, by paying exorbitant prices for a common (mintage-wise) coin, they are giving others incentive to send their raw, pristine coins in for grading, thus increasing the population of high grade coins, and thereby lowering the price of these coins.

This is not a put-down of registry set owners, or people who pay a lot for their coins.  Many people, myself included, do not collect with the intention of turning a profit. More than once, I have paid extra for a newly discovered piece, only to see prices fall when the rest of the "hoard" was sold. C'est la vie.  

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1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

I am of the opinion that most registry players who chase "top pops," so that they can have the number one set, are not concerned about whether or not they will recoup their investment when they decide to sell. Either that, or they do not understand the concept of supply and demand. They either don't realize or don't care that, by paying exorbitant prices for a common (mintage-wise) coin, they are giving others incentive to send their raw, pristine coins in for grading, thus increasing the population of high grade coins, and thereby lowering the price of these coins.

This is not a put-down of registry set owners, or people who pay a lot for their coins.  Many people, myself included, do not collect with the intention of turning a profit. More than once, I have paid extra for a newly discovered piece, only to see prices fall when the rest of the "hoard" was sold. C'est la vie.  

Thank you for a very fair-minded and well balanced post. (thumbsu

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3 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Thank you for a very fair-minded and well balanced post. (thumbsu

Thank you, Mark.

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It is what it is!!   Too long in  this assessment of what we should and should not do just drives me crazy!  I am happy where I am and enjoy all of your posts!!

Keep posting!! :)

Rick

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17 hours ago, Six Mile Rick said:

It is what it is!!   Too long in  this assessment of what we should and should not do just drives me crazy!  I am happy where I am and enjoy all of your posts!!

Keep posting!! :)

Rick

I could not agree more! 

I personally have always struggled with the technical differences between a 69 and a 70 on a modern coin. I can not tell the difference. This may be due to my lack of experience with modern coinage, but in my opinion a 69 by all other accounts looks just as nice as the 70 sitting right next to it. Beyond the label, I do not know what the difference is between a coin in a 69 and a 70 holder.

Although I personally do not understand the difference, at the end of the day everyone has different opinions, skills, and collecting preferences. It is ultimately their choice if they wish to collect such coins and their presence in the community just adds to the breadth of our ranks. I have always been happy to share my opinion when asked, but I would never discourage a collector from seeking out what they find interesting.

 

Edited by coinsandmedals
Tried to delete the extra quotation.

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On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 1:08 PM, coinsandmedals said:

I personally have always struggled with the technical differences between a 69 and a 70 on a modern coin. I can not tell the difference. This may be due to my lack of experience with modern coinage, but in my opinion a 69 by all other accounts looks just as nice as the 70 sitting right next to it. Beyond the label, I do not know what the difference is between a coin in a 69 and a 70 holder. 

There should definitely be a difference between 69 and 70 graded coins in proof or mint state. And herein lies the problem; 70 graded coins sometimes have visible flaws which separates them from the few that don't have visible flaws. Unfortunately we see these flawed coins sell over and over again and will never be regraded properly. Some of these 70 coins don't sell at auction and I suppose are just removed for sale in a different venue. This problem was caused by the TPG's but cannot (or will not) be fixed by them.

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8 minutes ago, numisport said:

There should definitely be a difference between 69 and 70 graded coins in proof or mint state. And herein lies the problem; 70 graded coins sometimes have visible flaws which separates them from the few that don't have visible flaws. Unfortunately we see these flawed coins sell over and over again and will never be regraded properly. Some of these 70 coins don't sell at auction and I suppose are just removed for sale in a different venue. This problem was caused by the TPG's but cannot (or will not) be fixed by them.

I completely agree. There should be a difference between a 69 and 70. Those who are better at grading than I am may be able to tell the difference, but I lack that ability. I recognize the issue, but so long as the demand is there I don’t see the issue coming to an end in the near future. 

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"There should be a difference between a 69 and 70"

Exactly, THERE SHOULD BE! In most cases there is no difference. One service puts out quite a number of "70's", which is probably accurate with the grading standards and modern production, the other service keeps the number of "70's" lower, simply to keep up a false impression of tighter standards. If you look at enough of these, you will conclude that, for the most part, there is actually no difference in "69" or "70" graded coins. The arrogant people will say that you don't have enough experience to tell the difference, and that is just arrogance. Anyone who has collected for years should admit that the whole 69-70 thing is hype.

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One thing about this 69 and 70 business that should not be forgotten is that no coin out of a pliofilm packet can grade 70 IMO. Most of these were shipped by mail ! Again look at Pf 70 Brown Ikes. They've been dipped. Mr Feld can you explain this ?

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37 minutes ago, numisport said:

One thing about this 69 and 70 business that should not be forgotten is that no coin out of a pliofilm packet can grade 70 IMO. Most of these were shipped by mail ! Again look at Pf 70 Brown Ikes. They've been dipped. Mr Feld can you explain this ?

Neither NGC nor PCGS requires that a coin be literally perfect in order to award it the grade of 70.

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Thanks for that clarification Mark, your point as usual is spot on. One important thing to remember if you purchase a 70 graded coin is that very few are really flawless coins. That explains why these coins often don't meet opening bid at auction. They end up in registry sets where often the coins are not viewed as much as their labels are.

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On 11/11/2018 at 8:56 AM, numisport said:

Thanks for that clarification Mark, your point as usual is spot on. One important thing to remember if you purchase a 70 graded coin is that very few are really flawless coins. That explains why these coins often don't meet opening bid at auction. They end up in registry sets where often the coins are not viewed as much as their labels are.

Exactly, we'll stated...

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The last few years I have been buying PF70 Jeffersons for my registry. One reason is they are pretty cheap now, and second reason is after I get them they at least look like a good 69 anyway.  Lol 

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19 minutes ago, bsshog40 said:

The last few years I have been buying PF70 Jeffersons for my registry. One reason is they are pretty cheap now, and second reason is after I get them they at least look like a good 69 anyway.  Lol 

I was stunned at the quality of 1962, 63 and 1964 Jeffersons. I own an incredible '64 in NGC Pf 69 Ultra Cameo that you would think looks 70 grade. These are available for a couple hundred bucks at auction but I paid more for mine.

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On 11/10/2018 at 12:58 PM, MarkFeld said:

Neither NGC nor PCGS requires that a coin be literally perfect in order to award it the grade of 70.

I understand that it us impossible to mint a coin that is perfect down to microscopic detail, but they should at least reserve the 70 grade for coins that are perfect to the naked eye. I am sure that most of us have seen coins that have been awarded a 70 grade that have visible imperfections, as well as coins graded 69 which appear perfect.

I suppose.that as long as humans are doing.the grading, there will always be inconsistency, and there will always be other humans who disagree with them.

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