Civil War Tokens - Price Gouging

["DAC"]

I buy a good number of Civil War Tokens on eBay almost all graded by NGC.

There is a seller on eBay:  CWTGUY

This seller always has a fine collection of professionally graded civil war tokens from NGC however after following there sales for the last 3 month's I've noticed a trend that I believe is a disservice to all civil war token collectors.  I've been told that there is a N.Y. buyer who is constantly buying up all these civil war tokens on a daily basis at absurd prices.  Now what happens to those tokens after they are sold who knows.  What I do know is... If you have a $275.00 token selling for $535.00 and beyond at "R6" there's a problem.

One can say this mystery buyer may really want a civil war token..  But having seen this person buy up dozens upon dozens of civil war tokens driving the price beyond what would be considered normal for the type and rarity I've begun to ask questions...  Either this person has more money than they know what to do with...  Or are they a speculator trying to accumulate as many Civil War Tokens in circulation with the intention of price gouging people when they are all bought up...

Friends if you seen the kind of prices this mystery buyer is paying.. I think you all would be asking questions too!!.  What's the deal with this guy?.  Coin collector ~or~ coin flipper.  I've added a picture of the most recent Civil War Token that this person bid up to $535.00.  Now there "where" 2 in this particular grade.  I own 1 which was recently downgraded by NGC to a MS 63 because the slab expired and it was regraded as raw.  The picture show's the other 1 in MS 64.   I bought my CWT for $275.00.  It was appraised by Mathew Bowers @ Coin world for $175.00.  So if a Bellevue OH CWT at MS 64 is only appraised @ $175.00... Why is this selling for $535.00 ???  The slab with the stickers cert # is 4655473-008.   The other pictured CWT is the one I bought (red background).  I paid $275.  N.Y. buyer is paying $535.  What's the deal and why is this N.Y. buyer paying absurd prices for these CWT's??

Please, anyone at NGC can look into this and these CWT's are selling for beyond what they should be selling for and can find out "why" please... let me know.

DAC1

[Matt G]

Thank you for your question. Unfortunately, NGC is an independent 3rd party grading service and does not buy or sell coins. I have moved your post to the US, World, and Ancient forums as other members may have information. 

[JIM F.]

 

Quote

 I own 1 which was recently downgraded by NGC to a MS 63 because the slab expired and it was regraded as raw

What do you mean by the "slab expired"?

["DAC"]

Jim F..    Pertaining to Civil War Tokens ~ or ~ copper coins...

NGC warrant's the grade of the token for 10 years.  NGC claims copper coins can change over time and thus must be reholdered.  It's my understanding NGC will only guarantee the "grade" of CWT's for 10 years then after that it expires.  However if you resubmit the CWT to NGC within the 10 year window.. NGC will reholder the slab and extend the grade for another 10 years.  If you do not resubmit your CWT within the allowed 10 year time frame NGC does not warrant the grade and the slab is "expired".  Once a slab is "expired" you can still resubmit it to NGC however it will be treated as "RAW" ungraded and it will be regarded regardless of the original grade on the slab.  The new grade will be up to NGC it could be higher or lower than what was originally issued.   My P. Brady was a MS 64 it was originally a Top Pop token when I bought it.  Now MS 64 @ R 6 is Pop 2, 1 higher.  I own 1 of the 2 (shown in the picture).  When I resubmitted it to NGC to have it reholdered since the slab expired NGC downgraded it from a MS 64 to a MS 63.  I don't understand why NGC does this, PCGS does not.  When You give something a grade.. you should stand behind it.

[JIM F.]

That's interesting, and I did not know that.  But unless one is the original submitter, how would one know when the coin was graded and the slab expires?  So, copper that is slabbed in a 10+ year old holder are essentially raw?  Maybe NGC can also chime in on this topic.

["DAC"]

Jim F.

If it's a civil war token, copper:

Type in the Certification Number on the NGC holder.  Read the fine print UNDER the coin picture.  It will tell you when the holder was submitted to NGC and when the holder expires.  Usually if the coin picture is blank.. there could be an issue..  I am really surprised of the amount of people who do not know this.  I usually use PCGS however NGC has the market on Civil War Tokens and NGC slabs look allot better, my opinion.

[JIM F.]

WOW.  This has a lot of implications, and none of them are good.  I just checked a fairly high value copper cent I have that is NGC MS-66 RD with a CAC and it was graded back in 1997.  Maybe safest thing to do is submit in holder to PCGS for crossover, but lose the CAC.  Sorry to get off track from your original post.

 

[Just Bob]

It appears that CWTGUY's sales are true auctions, with no BIN, so there must be at least two bidders who think that those tokens are worth the prices that they have been fetching (or one legit bidder and a shill). As frustrating as it may be, if someone wants to pay moon money for the finest known example of a coin or token, they are certainly within their rights. Several years ago, there were a few collectors of Mississippi tokens that had really deep pockets, and I  seldom was able to get my hands on any rare pieces, since prices quickly went out of the range that I was willing to pay. Things have settled a bit lately, although some pieces still go for good money, and I have been able to pick up some nice items.

Regarding the second issue of "expiring" copper, I am curious about why you decided to send your Brady token in for a regrade. If it was in your collection, why not keep it as is?

["DAC"]

Bob.. 

I don't like "raw" civil war tokens.  Same applies for Morgan Dollar and anything else.  Go to coin show's and see them in 2 x 2 flips yeah they look nice and neatly organized but honestly do "you" trust the grade a seller / dealer has assigned a raw coin?.  For the most part dealers are great people open and honest but when it comes to my money I.. do not.  When I buy something I expect it to be true to grade which is why I prefer an independent evaluation by a third party.

Regarding "expired" slabs I see nothing wrong with them with the caveat that most sellers do not realize (or care) that NGC does not recognize expired grades.  This is a big problem as when you claim a coin is TOP POP and you pay up for it...  Then later realize hey it's not TOP POP because it was downgraded when it's been resubmitted...  you'll come to the same conclusion that you probably should not have paid as much for the coin as you did.  You should treat expired slabs as they are, expired.  Expired coins are "RAW" and you should dace carefully around paying a price for a RAW coin.

Why did I choose NGC for reholder?.  They have the market on Civil War Tokens no question about it.  In my opinion for what it's worth I like NGC label compared to PCGS.  What I don't like about NGC is when you pay to get a coin graded.. It should not "expire" and if it does.. and no one tampered with it... They should be obligated to respect the grade and reissue it should the owner resubmit the coin.

 

[coinman1794]

3 hours ago, "DAC" said:

Bob.. 

I don't like "raw" civil war tokens.  Same applies for Morgan Dollar and anything else.  Go to coin show's and see them in 2 x 2 flips yeah they look nice and neatly organized but honestly do "you" trust the grade a seller / dealer has assigned a raw coin?.  For the most part dealers are great people open and honest but when it comes to my money I.. do not.  When I buy something I expect it to be true to grade which is why I prefer an independent evaluation by a third party.

There is nothing wrong with a preference for an independent evaluation. However, there are plenty of nice raw coins out there that you are missing out on. It pays to know how to grade and only buy raw coins that are accurately graded. You will find that some are under-graded, too.

[coinman1794]

On the original topic, Civil War Tokens are very under-rated at current levels. Perhaps at least two people are on to this fact and are willing to pay more for scarce pieces.

[Just Bob]

7 hours ago, "DAC" said:

 Go to coin show's and see them in 2 x 2 flips yeah they look nice and neatly organized but honestly do "you" trust the grade a seller / dealer has assigned a raw coin?.  For the most part dealers are great people open and honest but when it comes to my money I.. do not.  When I buy something I expect it to be true to grade which is why I prefer an independent evaluation by a third party.

 

 There is not a cut-and-dried answer to this question. When I go to a show or any place in which I have ample time (and good lighting) to view the items I find interesting, I prefer to use my own judgement concerning grade and price, especially when it involves circulated or lower grade MS coins or tokens. It does not really matter what grade the seller assigns, I go by my own interpretation of the coin's look: the amount or lack of wear, the presence of obvious marks, the general overall look or "eye appeal." - all of the stuff that all of us use to rate our coins in our own minds. Then I decide if I like that piece at the price being asked. If so, I buy. If not, I pass. (I don't like to haggle.) I don't worry about price guides, or what some other person may or may not have paid or will pay for that item. Have I ever overpaid? Yes. Have I gotten some really great deals? Absolutely. Both are part of the process of collecting, at least in my mind.

Proof coins are a different story. I honestly don't think I could tell a PR67 from a PR68, or a 69 from a 70. Unless it is a low priced Roosevelt to add to my album, I will only buy slabbed proofs.

When it comes to online auctions, that is another ballgame. I do not trust myself grading from pictures, and I do not trust my ability to detect every counterfeit. Again, I might buy a raw lower grade token from ebay, (and I do), but anything mint state or proof, anything that is often encountered cleaned, and coins that are frequently counterfeited will probably be graded.

[numisport]

NGC monitors all reholder submissions and will not reholder if coppers change color after a 10 year period. They will call and give you the option to reholder at the current color condition at your discretion but will not guarantee color after 10 years.

[BillJones]

It is interesting to note that NGC slabs "expire." I can understand this with red and R&B copper, but for brown and circulated copper, it should make no difference. Given proper storage, those pieces should be well preserved. 

I am an old fashioned collector who prefers my tokens and medals raw. They take up a lot less space, and they are easier to photograph. I only buy slabbed pieces when I have to, to get a specific variety. If the slab does not mean anything after ten years, you might as well crack it out, if that is your preference, since the guarantee is worthless at that point. 

Does the "expired" clause also apply to the authenticity guarantee also? If it does, that is really poor. A grading service should make authenticity a 100% guarantee with no expiration date.

["DAC"]

Bill Jones:

Expired Slabs do matter...

Here is the actual civil war token I recently sent into NGC to have reholder since the slab expired.

Notice the token with the red background which is a P. Brady NGC MS 64 before.  Notice NGC graded it a MS 64.  The token was never modified, never tampered with.. it didn't disintegrate..  it wasn't abused, the slab isn't cracked..  It literally sat in a display case since I acquired it.  It was a Top Pop token per NGC when I bought it.

Notice the token with a black background.  This is the same P. Brady token which was returned after NGC reholder it.  Notice it went from a NGC MS 64 and now it's a NGC MS 63.  Trust me when I got it back I made several calls NGC refused to talk to me since I submitted it thru a NGC submissions dealer.  NGC said it was a "dealer issue" and talk to the dealer.  I had the "dealer" call NGC and they told me since it "expired" it was regraded as "RAW".  

So the moral of this story is...  Grade matters.  I had a Top Pop token before I submitted it.. and now I have a token with a Pop 1, 1 higher.  It's still a very nice token and will remain in my collection however I don't get it.   You go to a car dealership right in 1988 and you look at a 1988 Ford F-150..  It's a truck.  Year 2018 guess what...  It's still a 1988 Ford "F-150".   Yes the truck itself might be a little lighter from rust however it's still a 1988 and it's still a Ford and it's still a F-150...

So this said..  If you pay NGC to grade a token...  and the token is never modified, it's never tampered with, it's not abused, the slab is not cracked, it was never taken out of the slab not played with...  It was a Civil War Token the day it was made.. It's still a Civil War Token the day it was regraded..  Please someone tell me.... "WHY" or better yet "A Good Reason" why NGC will not honor a GRADE they given a Token when you resubmit it...  If you pay for a service and nothing has changed..  NGC graded it..  Why does NGC not stand behind the Grade and reissue the token in the Original Grade of which it was assigned to begin with..   If it's not tampered with, what's the deal then?.

This issue matter's the anyone who own's NGC Civil War Tokens I'm sure If your the one who "paid up" for a civil war token in an expired slab.. Your going to be more than disappointed when it's returned to you @ a lower grade.  

DAC

 

 

[BillJones]

The only issue that NGC can have with this “expired” policy is if the token was once Red or R&B and has now turned Brown. I understand that issue. Red copper is delicate and the color can be fickle. 

If they refuse to honor a grade on a Brown Mint State or circulated coin, that has not gone bad in the holder, that is a problem, That says to me that the holder is not worth that much. If it “turns into a pumpkin” every ten years if you don’t spend more money with the company to keep it up, it’s not worth the price. 

You will note that I gave NGC every benefit of the doubt with my caveats that the coin “did not change in the holder.”

[coinman1794]

7 hours ago, BillJones said:

It is interesting to note that NGC slabs "expire." I can understand this with red and R&B copper, but for brown and circulated copper, it should make no difference. Given proper storage, those pieces should be well preserved. 

I am an old fashioned collector who prefers my tokens and medals raw. They take up a lot less space, and they are easier to photograph. I only buy slabbed pieces when I have to, to get a specific variety. If the slab does not mean anything after ten years, you might as well crack it out, if that is your preference, since the guarantee is worthless at that point. 

Does the "expired" clause also apply to the authenticity guarantee also? If it does, that is really poor. A grading service should make authenticity a 100% guarantee with no expiration date.

This is NGC's written guarantee for AE coins:

Deterioration of Certain Coins. The NGC Guarantee does not apply to certain Coins where the appearance of the Coin changes or deteriorates over time and such change or deterioration is responsible for any discrepancy between the assigned grade and the Coin’s actual grade. NGC shall make the sole reasonable determination as to whether this deterioration has occurred. The following specific parameters apply:

1. In certain Coins, natural environmental deterioration may cause undesired features to appear, such as (but not limited to) spotting, hazing, PVC and corrosion. Spots, for example, can occur on modern silver Coins as a result of the minting process or other natural conditions over which NGC has no control. Therefore, the NGC Guarantee does not apply to Coins exhibiting any of these issues.
2. Coins made of copper, bronze and brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated Coins graded by NGC, the grade portion of the NGC Guarantee will no longer apply after the 10-year anniversary of their date of encapsulation by NGC. The expiration date of the grade portion of the NGC Guarantee can be found by entering the Coin’s certification number in the Verify NGC Certification section of the NGC website or by contacting NGC Customer Service.

[LINCOLNMAN]

On 7/25/2018 at 1:01 AM, JIM F. said:

WOW.  This has a lot of implications, and none of them are good.  I just checked a fairly high value copper cent I have that is NGC MS-66 RD with a CAC and it was graded back in 1997.  Maybe safest thing to do is submit in holder to PCGS for crossover, but lose the CAC.  Sorry to get off track from your original post.

 

I chose not to reholder some of the IHC's that I submitted a couple of years ago. NGC gave me a heads-up before reholdering and I asked them to return some of those that they would have downgraded (mainly for color). The percentage that had "turned" was surprisingly high. I kept some where the holder wasn't too bad and sold the rest. Interestingly, the prices I got for the coins I sold were fair for the "revised" grade. In other words, buyers bought the coin, not the holder. 

["DAC"]

Lincolnman;

Civil War Tokens, today. are about 153 - 157 years old...

If NGC for whatever reason is able to grade a 150 + year old civil war token.....  alright this is OLD man...  Great !!.

Ok so if NGC grades the token and puts the token in it's own slab and is willing to slaps a fancy warranty on it....  10 years goes by.. and it's time to reholder the token.... I don't understand what could possibly go wrong with the token... If the token is not be tampered with, not altered, not removed from it's holder, the slab isn't cracked... so on and so forth... What could possibly happened in this short 10 years to cause this token "not" to be able to be graded by NGC??.  Why on earth would NGC be unable to grade a 150 year old civil war token that they originally graded in a matter of 10 or 20 years should the token remain unharmed in it's original NGC slab?.  This makes no sense to me.

Please.. someone educate me...  NGC put it there... If nobody messed with it.. yet.. How can the token chang so much in 10 years... after 150 years in circulation.. that NGC cannot grade a token... PLEASE !!.

Can anyone answer that??..

[thebeav]

I don't see a problem with the prices that these have brought. Especially something with a pop of 2 !

Something, anything, is only worth what someone is willing to pay. 

I guess I don't understand your original post. Are you complaining because you wanted to buy this at a 'deal' ? Are you worried that your tokens may be worth more than you thought ? What, exactly, is your point ?

[LINCOLNMAN]

8 hours ago, "DAC" said:

Lincolnman;

Civil War Tokens, today. are about 153 - 157 years old...

If NGC for whatever reason is able to grade a 150 + year old civil war token.....  alright this is OLD man...  Great !!.

Ok so if NGC grades the token and puts the token in it's own slab and is willing to slaps a fancy warranty on it....  10 years goes by.. and it's time to reholder the token.... I don't understand what could possibly go wrong with the token... If the token is not be tampered with, not altered, not removed from it's holder, the slab isn't cracked... so on and so forth... What could possibly happened in this short 10 years to cause this token "not" to be able to be graded by NGC??.  Why on earth would NGC be unable to grade a 150 year old civil war token that they originally graded in a matter of 10 or 20 years should the token remain unharmed in it's original NGC slab?.  This makes no sense to me.

Please.. someone educate me...  NGC put it there... If nobody messed with it.. yet.. How can the token chang so much in 10 years... after 150 years in circulation.. that NGC cannot grade a token... PLEASE !!.

Can anyone answer that??..

Wish I knew why the IHC's I submitted had turned. I had just started the set so I couldn't say how they were stored, etc. However, the slabs were abused, so that would suggest that they hadn't been handled or stored with the best of care. To be clear NGC graded these coins, but what was RB was now BN, etc. I can see the reasoning behind the TPG's policies, as copper can easily turn if not properly stored (even in a slab) and once the coin leaves their hands it can be mishandled in a variety of ways beyond their control. BTW I didn't disagree with NGC's new assessment of these coins and I bought them right, so no pain.  

[coinman1794]

10 hours ago, "DAC" said:

Lincolnman;

Civil War Tokens, today. are about 153 - 157 years old...

If NGC for whatever reason is able to grade a 150 + year old civil war token.....  alright this is OLD man...  Great !!.

Ok so if NGC grades the token and puts the token in it's own slab and is willing to slaps a fancy warranty on it....  10 years goes by.. and it's time to reholder the token.... I don't understand what could possibly go wrong with the token... If the token is not be tampered with, not altered, not removed from it's holder, the slab isn't cracked... so on and so forth... What could possibly happened in this short 10 years to cause this token "not" to be able to be graded by NGC??.  Why on earth would NGC be unable to grade a 150 year old civil war token that they originally graded in a matter of 10 or 20 years should the token remain unharmed in it's original NGC slab?.  This makes no sense to me.

Please.. someone educate me...  NGC put it there... If nobody messed with it.. yet.. How can the token chang so much in 10 years... after 150 years in circulation.. that NGC cannot grade a token... PLEASE !!.

Can anyone answer that??..

Copper, and red copper in particular, is an unstable metal. It can develop spots and corrosion, even while inside an NGC slab. It can change to brown virtually overnight. The slightest carbon spotting on a 64 can turn it into a 63 overnight. NGC did not invent this phenomenon, so on some level, I can't blame them for covering their backside with this stipulation.

That doesn't mean your coin changed. The grading standards may also have changed, and as the coin was graded as raw, it may have simply received "today's" grade. The real question is not what has happened to the coin, but what grade you think the coin actually is; MS64 or MS63.

["DAC"]

Coinman1794;

Your right.

For me...  I don't agree nor disagree with the downgrade of my civil war token.

What I am simply saying is...  Civil War Tokens have been in circulation for 150 years.  Imagine all the people who have touched them, where they have been, how they where handled.  I'm pretty sure for the most part during those 150 years most civil war tokens where not placed in a 'slab' many of them where mixed with coinage in someone's pocket or sock drawer and ones imagination can be limitless.  Earlier on I doubt very much so if anyone even cared about civil war tokens going from Red to Brown nor spotting or better yet how it was handled..   

I am suggesting that civil war tokens being in circulation where anything but handled with white gloves some exceptions of course but for the most part treated them as if they where gold for the most part people did not do or cared about.  So getting back to specifics of grading I guess what I am trying to say is the grade for the most part isn't really the single most important factor to base a price for a civil war token.

I'm seeing many dealers promote a tokens grade as "the finest known" or "the highest graded known" nothing wrong with this but when an uneducated collector who is just  getting into civil war tokens may view this and think "man I got to have that"!.   This could be a problem for the civil war token community if this is going to turn into the only factor that is used to price civil war tokens then it's only going to lead everyone into sky high priced tokens which are extremely common and misrepresent die rarities.

I've been able to acquire some rather expensive civil war tokens that should have gone for much higher prices simply because the seller priced the token by grade alone.  Many uneducated collectors are missing out of the rarities of die combinations and this is where civil war tokens should be judged and priced and not by grade alone.

I'm seeing R1's selling for R8 prices and R10's selling at R3 prices it's all over the map and this is what attracted me to collecting civil war tokens.  That said what really concerns me and going back to the original purpose of this post is Price Gouging.  I am seeing (which turns my stomach) coin flippers who have popped up out of the wood work in this numismatic sector taking advantage of what I said above for personal gain.  To use one's skill set to take advantage of fellow collectors is wrong and those people should be ashamed of themselves and I wish NGC or even PCGS for that matter and bring it to the attention of people.

True Civil War Collectors should collect for the enjoyment and appreciation of the hobby and not for personal gain.

[MarkFeld]

2 hours ago, "DAC" said:

Coinman1794;

Your right.

For me...  I don't agree nor disagree with the downgrade of my civil war token.

What I am simply saying is...  Civil War Tokens have been in circulation for 150 years.  Imagine all the people who have touched them, where they have been, how they where handled.  I'm pretty sure for the most part during those 150 years most civil war tokens where not placed in a 'slab' many of them where mixed with coinage in someone's pocket or sock drawer and ones imagination can be limitless.  Earlier on I doubt very much so if anyone even cared about civil war tokens going from Red to Brown nor spotting or better yet how it was handled..   

I am suggesting that civil war tokens being in circulation where anything but handled with white gloves some exceptions of course but for the most part treated them as if they where gold for the most part people did not do or cared about.  So getting back to specifics of grading I guess what I am trying to say is the grade for the most part isn't really the single most important factor to base a price for a civil war token.

I'm seeing many dealers promote a tokens grade as "the finest known" or "the highest graded known" nothing wrong with this but when an uneducated collector who is just  getting into civil war tokens may view this and think "man I got to have that"!.   This could be a problem for the civil war token community if this is going to turn into the only factor that is used to price civil war tokens then it's only going to lead everyone into sky high priced tokens which are extremely common and misrepresent die rarities.

I've been able to acquire some rather expensive civil war tokens that should have gone for much higher prices simply because the seller priced the token by grade alone.  Many uneducated collectors are missing out of the rarities of die combinations and this is where civil war tokens should be judged and priced and not by grade alone.

I'm seeing R1's selling for R8 prices and R10's selling at R3 prices it's all over the map and this is what attracted me to collecting civil war tokens.  That said what really concerns me and going back to the original purpose of this post is Price Gouging.  I am seeing (which turns my stomach) coin flippers who have popped up out of the wood work in this numismatic sector taking advantage of what I said above for personal gain.  To use one's skill set to take advantage of fellow collectors is wrong and those people should be ashamed of themselves and I wish NGC or even PCGS for that matter and bring it to the attention of people.

True Civil War Collectors should collect for the enjoyment and appreciation of the hobby and not for personal gain.

You have a problem with sellers asking prices higher than you feel they should. Yet, you apparently have no problem with “I've been able to acquire some rather expensive civil war tokens that should have gone for much higher prices simply because the seller priced the token by grade alone.  Many uneducated collectors are missing out of the rarities of die combinations and this is where civil war tokens should be judged and priced and not by grade alone.” Sorry, but that sounds hypocritical to me.

[coinman1794]

10 hours ago, "DAC" said:

Coinman1794;

Your right.

For me...  I don't agree nor disagree with the downgrade of my civil war token.

What I am simply saying is...  Civil War Tokens have been in circulation for 150 years.  Imagine all the people who have touched them, where they have been, how they where handled.  I'm pretty sure for the most part during those 150 years most civil war tokens where not placed in a 'slab' many of them where mixed with coinage in someone's pocket or sock drawer and ones imagination can be limitless.  Earlier on I doubt very much so if anyone even cared about civil war tokens going from Red to Brown nor spotting or better yet how it was handled..   

I am suggesting that civil war tokens being in circulation where anything but handled with white gloves some exceptions of course but for the most part treated them as if they where gold for the most part people did not do or cared about.  So getting back to specifics of grading I guess what I am trying to say is the grade for the most part isn't really the single most important factor to base a price for a civil war token.

I'm seeing many dealers promote a tokens grade as "the finest known" or "the highest graded known" nothing wrong with this but when an uneducated collector who is just  getting into civil war tokens may view this and think "man I got to have that"!.   This could be a problem for the civil war token community if this is going to turn into the only factor that is used to price civil war tokens then it's only going to lead everyone into sky high priced tokens which are extremely common and misrepresent die rarities.

I've been able to acquire some rather expensive civil war tokens that should have gone for much higher prices simply because the seller priced the token by grade alone.  Many uneducated collectors are missing out of the rarities of die combinations and this is where civil war tokens should be judged and priced and not by grade alone.

I'm seeing R1's selling for R8 prices and R10's selling at R3 prices it's all over the map and this is what attracted me to collecting civil war tokens.  That said what really concerns me and going back to the original purpose of this post is Price Gouging.  I am seeing (which turns my stomach) coin flippers who have popped up out of the wood work in this numismatic sector taking advantage of what I said above for personal gain.  To use one's skill set to take advantage of fellow collectors is wrong and those people should be ashamed of themselves and I wish NGC or even PCGS for that matter and bring it to the attention of people.

True Civil War Collectors should collect for the enjoyment and appreciation of the hobby and not for personal gain.

I agree that these cannot be judged by population numbers because so few have been graded, and many that were do not show on the pop reports. That said, the market does what it will, and there are people who will look at these numbers and take from them what they will. On the other hand, do we realy know how many are out there?

In terms of preservation over the centuries, who knows how these were stored in order to preserve their red color. Unc examples did not circulate at all and must have been saved. Certain types of earlier slabs provide little protection beyond holders available from supply companies. NGC introduced their copper guarantee in 2008, with the redesign of their slab. I'm not sure if the slab you had ever qualified for the guarantee. I don't think it applies at all to coins graded before then, because, as I remember them saying, the new holder made the guarantee possible.

 

[kidrootbeer]

Just an Observation, having worked with a Charter Member of both PCGS and NGC (and remembering when NGC refused to encapsulate BU Copper coins): Copper is very unstable as a metal, especially when die struck and left to the elements. Copper also suffers in an enclosed plastic environment, as plastics emit gas traces over time (just ask the 1st generation P*** 1911-S Cent MS65RED, now Black, which we owned). You'd have to deep freeze your encapsulated BU Copper coins to ensure no atmospheric changes... we have seen gum traces from Crystal mounts transfer toning onto stamps that have been in them for decades. Nothing is impermeable. Of course, if the Copper coin had been "treated" in any way before encapsulation, with any variety of whatever you can think of, that usually shows-up later in the holder.

["DAC"]

kidrootbeer;

You said "copper" suffers in an enclosed plastic environment?.

The plastic emit's gas over time??  So your telling me that NGC / PCGS encapsulated coins are being damaged by the slabs?.

I do not speak for NGC / PCGS however I would assume that NGC / PCGS would hold some liability if the their slabs are damaging coins /tokens.  There are thousands of rare, extremely expensive coins and tokens in them and I'd immagine (do not know for sure) that the owner's of these coins and tokens if they are being damaged by NGC / PCGS slabs may be entitled to some recourse if this was the case.

I am not saying your wrong I am however unaware of NGC / PCGS slabs damaging coins / tokens.

I will be sure to ask...

DAC

["DAC"]

Mark Feld;

If you found a $100 bill laying on the side walk..  If no one was around... I'm sure you'd pick it up.

"Hypocritical" about what?.  That I found "good deals" on a few Civil War Tokens?.  This sounds like a typical Dealer annoyed they couldn't get anymore $$ out of a buyer...  I'm not here to compare shoe sizes all I am saying is there are "Coin Flippers" out there taking advantage of short term situations. 

To show you an example, Sir, of someone getting "ripped off"...  Here is a Civil War Token I just bought on eBay.  It sold on Great Collections for $46.00 in May '18.  The seller (eBay seller: ovaltrack) listed it on eBay for $250.00.   

Two people where taken advantage in this particular situation..  The original seller and I.  I however have the coin and intend to keep it.  The original seller however got taken for a ride and after the auction commissions / fee's might have $20 bucks.

If this isn't an example of coin flipping..  Sir.. just what is??.

DAC

[LINCOLNMAN]

I'm not sure I understand this thread, after an admittedly quick scan. Unless one of the parties is incapacitated, the result of a transaction is going to be fair by definition, even if one of the two parties makes a poor economic decision, simply because each party is making their own free choice.  

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, "DAC" said:

Mark Feld;

If you found a $100 bill laying on the side walk..  If no one was around... I'm sure you'd pick it up.

"Hypocritical" about what?.  That I found "good deals" on a few Civil War Tokens?.  This sounds like a typical Dealer annoyed they couldn't get anymore $$ out of a buyer...  I'm not here to compare shoe sizes all I am saying is there are "Coin Flippers" out there taking advantage of short term situations. 

To show you an example, Sir, of someone getting "ripped off"...  Here is a Civil War Token I just bought on eBay.  It sold on Great Collections for $46.00 in May '18.  The seller (eBay seller: ovaltrack) listed it on eBay for $250.00.   

Two people where taken advantage in this particular situation..  The original seller and I.  I however have the coin and intend to keep it.  The original seller however got taken for a ride and after the auction commissions / fee's might have $20 bucks.

If this isn't an example of coin flipping..  Sir.. just what is??.

DAC

You sound like you feel badly for the seller in the above situation. And yet, you didn’t express such concern when, as you stated ”I've been able to acquire some rather expensive civil war tokens that should have gone for much higher prices simply because the seller priced the token by grade alone..”. That is what strikes me as “hypocritical”.