U.S. Coins is on Life Support

[LINCOLNMAN]

2 hours ago, Conder101 said:

But once she posts it on one, it is just a matter of cut and paste to post it to another.  I enjoy her show reports, but not having a super fast internet connection it's a matter of opening it and then go do something else for ten minutes or so while all the images load (and sometimes they don't all load which means refresh the page and go do something else for another ten minutes) so I try to catch them when they are first posted and never go back again to see the comments.

Good point, I will go to one or the other forum and never a second time. Takes so long to open I assumed uploading was a royal pain. I am concerned about this forum mainly because I want to see NGC succeed, partly because I think it's healthy to have two top tier services. Not sure that this forum matters in that context, but every bit of positive exposure helps a business. I will also say I like NGC's service, general vibe, and the look of the holder. I wasn't affected by the registry change, but it was inconsistent with my positive perception of the company. The change does foreclose any chance that I will register here or ATS in the future. 

[coinman1794]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:20 PM, BillJones said:

There are a bunch of those posts ATS too, and some people there are getting sick of them also. Non productive, repetitive posts like that do kill interest, but that's not all of it. I saw a big drop off here after NGC stopped taking PCGS U.S. on their registry. The cut over to the new software here on these boards also did not go as smoothly as some hoped.

There is also a lot energy going out of the U.S. coin market because of CAC. A number of veteran collectors, like me, are very unhappy with the pressure from certain segments that say, "only PCGS graded, CAC approved coins are good. Everything else is dreck or second class." It's discouraging when one person has veto power over much of the U.S. coin market. I'm spending more time with my medals and tokens, and I've been collecting British coins and have started to dabble with ancient Roman.

The new website absolutely killed the NGC forum. It has not recovered.

I have found fewer and fewer people seem to care about CAC, and there are perhaps millions of coins out there selling just fine without green beans.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

3 hours ago, coinman1794 said:

The new website absolutely killed the NGC forum. It has not recovered.

I agree with this.

And, IMHO, the reason is that it used to be that Comic Book Collectors, Coin Collectors, Paper Money Collectors, and just curious people in general, came to the NGC Web Site by word of mouth knowledge that the Water Cooler was one of the better places to visit on the entire Internet.  And someone might register just to gain access to the Water Cooler.

It turns out that the Comic Book collectors were the heart-and-soul of the entire website.  And when someone would have their fill of the Water Cooler, maybe they'd take a look at a U.S. Coins thread, and maybe they'd make a comment on one of the U.S. Coins threads.  Maybe they'd even start a thread on the U.S. Coins page.

Then the entire place got partitioned, and the only Water Cooler that survived was the Comic Book Water Cooler.

No longer was it a mere click away to visit U.S Coins.  You'd have to navigate to get there. And before you knew it, no one was navigating to get there.

What makes me so sure of this?

I don't collect Comics, and I have a small U.S. Gold type set.  But I would rarely visit U.S. Coins after the transition, and I would often visit the Comics Water Cooler.

Those guys are funny, witty, have an incredible sense of humor, and have a lot of interest in a lot of things.

This recent (yesterday) simplification probably won't bring back the glory of yesteryear.

Had NGC transitioned to the new format, but left the structure the way it had been, then it would have worked out.

Of course, I can't prove this, but it is a compelling hypothesis.

[Mohawk]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 2:06 PM, Walkerfan said:

Honestly, I agree with Bill Jones. 

Disallowing PCGS coins into their NGC Registry really angered A LOT of people. 

Personally, I am unable to complete a Registry set(s) that I have been working on since 2005. 

I really wish they would reconsider. 

But unlike many I will continue to support NGC....I have always liked them and I still do. 

I wonder how their earnings have been since that decision?

 

 

I have heard that decision angered many collectors.....however, I have some thoughts on that.  Before I get into that though, I want to reiterate that I am not a US coin collector, and PCGS's grading standards for US Coins may be very different than their standards for non-US Coins.  Now that I've said that.......PCGS is TERRIBLE at grading the coins I collect (country-wise, mostly Canada and Soviet Bloc stuff).  I can see why NGC disallowed PCGS coins in the World Sets.  PCGS's standards with most World material are nowhere near NGC's.  One of my favorite pursuits is cameo Canadian Proof Like Coinage.  Now, this is an area with a lot of subtleness to it and it's very difficult to grade PL coins with Cameo and Ultra Cameo designations that are acceptable in the US Market as well as in the Canadian and International markets.  NGC is the only US grading service that, in my experience, is able to do that.  They are the only US TPG that understands that, not only is designating a Cameo on a Canadian PL coin very different than what is required for a US Proof coin, but that the Canadian Market tends to be tougher on what is designated a Cameo than the US Market.  From my experience, NGC certification is acceptable and desirable both in the US and Canada.  They're even starting to make inroads against ICCS, from what I've seen, and for those who are experienced in the Canadian market they know how amazing that actually is.  ICCS has been the ONLY acceptable grading service for Canadian coins since, it seems like, the middle of the Cretaceous period and it once seemed like they'd never be dethroned or have any serious competition.  Now they do, because NGC's graders understand Canadian coins and how to properly grade them and, as a result,  NGC is gaining increasing acceptance in the Canadian coin market.  There's still those older collectors who have been collecting since the end of the Cretaceous period that are still "ICCS only", but younger collectors (and many less curmudgeonly older collectors as well) seem to be moving more toward NGC and ICCS both being acceptable to them.  PCGS, on the other hand, is a joke.  Their grading standards for Canadian are, simply put, unacceptable to most serious collectors of Canadian coins.  I know Canadian collectors that view PCGS in the same way they view ICG. And PCGS grading for most non-US material is equally problematic.  Their standards are simply unacceptable in these areas.  I'm not trying to "service bash" or anything. I'm just stating my experiences on the way to a point I want to make.

Now, I know PCGS's standards for US coins could be entirely different.  I don't actively collect US coins myself, so I honestly can't speak to the standards there but, from observation, it seems that PCGS does alright with US stuff.  But, look at this problem from NGC's perspective.  They have a much larger share of the non-US market than PCGS does, and they've gained a level of international acceptance that PCGS has not.  They've realized that PCGS's standards are not up to the same level as NGC's in an important and huge coin market.  Does it not stand to reason that PCGS's US grading may become suspect in light of these realizations as well?  Once again, I'm not trying to stir anything up or start any PCGS vs. NGC battles.  Rather, I'm trying to look at things from NGC's perspective and share why I theorize that PCGS coins have been banned altogether.  For example, I'm building sets of all of the denominations of Elizabeth II Proof Like Coins here on the Registry, and all of my coins are NGC graded, therefore they are graded with NGC's stricter standards for Canadian Proof Like coins.  Would it be fair for someone to be able to come into the Canadian Proof Like Registries and knock me down a few spots with PCGS graded coins that are graded with a looser standard that really aren't as nice as my NGC coins, but they carry the same or higher grades due to looser standards?  I think this is why NGC made the decision they did.  They answered the above question with a resounding "no".  I really do think that NGC was trying to be fair to everyone with the decision, though it did make some collectors angry.  But, hopefully, my theorizing here has maybe given everyone a possible insight into NGC's decision.  But I could be wrong about the reasoning behind that decision.  I don't work for NGC, I just live here.

~Tom

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Let me just add that when I collected my small U.S. Gold type set, some of my coins were in PCGS holders.

I sent them in to NGC and crossed them.  Now every coin is in an NGC holder.

I think NGC provides a superior holder product. Love the appearance of US gold coins in NGC holders.

PCGS doesn't even come close.

And I'm not in any Registry.  So there is no sway for me in that regard, whatsoever.

[World Colonial]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 2:06 PM, Walkerfan said:

Honestly, I agree with Bill Jones. 

Disallowing PCGS coins into their NGC Registry really angered A LOT of people. 

Personally, I am unable to complete a Registry set(s) that I have been working on since 2005. 

I really wish they would reconsider. 

But unlike many I will continue to support NGC....I have always liked them and I still do. 

I wonder how their earnings have been since that decision?

 

 

I agree that disallowing PCGS coins from the NGC registry probably angered a lot of people.  Maybe this had a lot to do with the decreased activity here, I don't know.  I don't post on PCGS but in the past recognized many posters on both forums.  More recently though, posters who don't post here anymore haven't just been those who also posted on PCGS though there is some of both.

I presume NGC made this decision mostly if not entirely for competitive reasons.  I haven't heard that NGC's submission volume has decreased or at least decreased noticeably.  However, I also haven't heard it's improved their relative market share in US coins either.

In world coinage, I agree with Tom that NGC has a substantial lead volume wise.  I don't remember when the registry decision was made but I don't see why anyone would have been surprised by it.  From what I know, PCGS is and has been viewed at least by more affluent buyers as the leading grader of US coinage.  To my knowledge, they have never allowed NGC coins in their registry, US or world.

As the leader in world coinage, it certainly seems to make business sense for NGC to exclude PCGS coins from their registry, whether anyone likes it or not.  I don't participate in the registry, have no interest in it because I consider the supposed competition almost entirely meaningless but concurrently don't see it as many others apparently do.  Sure, it's free but its only real purpose is to generate submission volume.  Anyone who wants to display a non-competitive set can still do so as a Signature Set.

[LINCOLNMAN]

I have a small date set of gold, one in a PCGS holder. I keep the set in a display box. I will cross the PCGS coin at some point - the NGC holder displays gold much better. The black holders were very cool as well. 

[SkyMan]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:47 AM, Conder101 said:

But once she posts it on one, it is just a matter of cut and paste to post it to another.  I enjoy her show reports, but not having a super fast internet connection it's a matter of opening it and then go do something else for ten minutes or so while all the images load (and sometimes they don't all load which means refresh the page and go do something else for another ten minutes) so I try to catch them when they are first posted and never go back again to see the comments.

Actually, it is not just a matter of cut and paste.  For text it is just cut and paste, but for images you have to do them individually for each of the three major coin board sites (here, PCGS-CU, and Coin Talk).  

[Jade Collection]

I was fairly active here but the change in the site made it very difficult and now I'm finally used to it.  I wish they kept it the way it was......there was lots of activity and it was easy to jump from coins to comics and vice versa.

Hope it can become bustling here! I like NGC and joined to submit some coins and  submitted my first batch of 19 world coins........I'll make a post on the results which I saw and in a few days should get the coins back. Though the results weren't pleasing, it tells me they know their stuff.........they caught stuff with environmental damage, cleaning, etc that I did not even notice, I paid them to do their job and they did it.

I'll say this though, a lot of people may not post here but recently I started a instagram account for coins and WOWZAH, its bustling. World coins are really bustling.......met arabic collectors, russian, turkish, etc and daily there are posts about coins that they have, raw and slabbed.

[Mohawk]

16 hours ago, Mk123 said:

I was fairly active here but the change in the site made it very difficult and now I'm finally used to it.  I wish they kept it the way it was......there was lots of activity and it was easy to jump from coins to comics and vice versa.

Hope it can become bustling here! I like NGC and joined to submit some coins and  submitted my first batch of 19 world coins........I'll make a post on the results which I saw and in a few days should get the coins back. Though the results weren't pleasing, it tells me they know their stuff.........they caught stuff with environmental damage, cleaning, etc that I did not even notice, I paid them to do their job and they did it.

I'll say this though, a lot of people may not post here but recently I started a instagram account for coins and WOWZAH, its bustling. World coins are really bustling.......met arabic collectors, russian, turkish, etc and daily there are posts about coins that they have, raw and slabbed.

I'm not surprised Mk.  More and more, it seems like many collectors are either coming into the hobby because of World coins or that they are moving away from US classic coins into World.  US Moderns still seem to be going strong, though.  I can understand the move to World coins.  Better designs in most cases, lower mintages, you can get coins that are actually rare without taking out a second mortgage......all good things!! Also, going back to price, the US Classic market has been way overinflated for years and I do think a market correction is coming, especially in light of the larger numbers of collectors moving out of that market and into World or US Moderns.  It'll be interesting to see what the future holds.

[KarenHolcomb]

Hmmm...well at least we had moved on from everyone hating on the newbies. Thisbwas the first site I ever posted in and had hoped I only chosen decent, real questions that deserved an answer and always try to be respectful. I go to forums other than the Newbie and read the posts and answers and try to leaarn new things. I didn't start collecting to strike it rich with my pocket change,  I started to fill my time, but not already being wealthy as aparently most of you are, I cannot buy lavish perfect ancient coins without first finding that major error first to start funding myself. Hell, when I started I hadn't even heard of an error coin. But once I had then yes, that is what I need to start getting what I want, if that makes sense to any of you. But after reading what many of you think about me and my like i say to myself, what's the point?  Why even bother? I obviously can no longer ask about anything I find for fear that I will appear stupid or as a money grubber. Thanks y'all. Time to find a new way to fill my time.

[WoodenJefferson]

2 hours ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Hmmm...well at least we had moved on from everyone hating on the newbies. Thisbwas the first site I ever posted in and had hoped I only chosen decent, real questions that deserved an answer and always try to be respectful. I go to forums other than the Newbie and read the posts and answers and try to leaarn new things. I didn't start collecting to strike it rich with my pocket change,  I started to fill my time, but not already being wealthy as aparently most of you are, I cannot buy lavish perfect ancient coins without first finding that major error first to start funding myself. Hell, when I started I hadn't even heard of an error coin. But once I had then yes, that is what I need to start getting what I want, if that makes sense to any of you. But after reading what many of you think about me and my like i say to myself, what's the point?  Why even bother? I obviously can no longer ask about anything I find for fear that I will appear stupid or as a money grubber. Thanks y'all. Time to find a new way to fill my time.

History in coin chat forums has proven tough for those still starting out, we've all been there at one time or another...as harsh as it seems, the comment about you having to grow a tougher skin sometimes rings true. There are a mix of people on theses boards where some remain quiet, to others expressing their views in a manner that offend. You have to take the good with the bad and sort it all out and you'll det most times what you are seeking. So don't leave, stick around and join the fray.

[World Colonial]

5 hours ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Hmmm...well at least we had moved on from everyone hating on the newbies. Thisbwas the first site I ever posted in and had hoped I only chosen decent, real questions that deserved an answer and always try to be respectful. I go to forums other than the Newbie and read the posts and answers and try to leaarn new things. I didn't start collecting to strike it rich with my pocket change,  I started to fill my time, but not already being wealthy as aparently most of you are, I cannot buy lavish perfect ancient coins without first finding that major error first to start funding myself. Hell, when I started I hadn't even heard of an error coin. But once I had then yes, that is what I need to start getting what I want, if that makes sense to any of you. But after reading what many of you think about me and my like i say to myself, what's the point?  Why even bother? I obviously can no longer ask about anything I find for fear that I will appear stupid or as a money grubber. Thanks y'all. Time to find a new way to fill my time.

I don't believe the comments you are referencing were directed at you.  In the last few months, there have been a few new posters who have started numerous topics about coins found in circulation but I don't see you as one of them.  Though I can see why some others might think there have been too many of these topics, I disagree that it has anything to do with the reduced level of posting activity here which has been trending down for years now.

If others find these topics irritating or pointless, I don't really see any difference with the numerous prior posts and topics related to CAC or posting pictures and asking what TPG grade some coin is likely to receive.  There is less activity here but I see these subjects on the PCGS Message Boards all the time.

[LINCOLNMAN]

8 hours ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Hmmm...well at least we had moved on from everyone hating on the newbies. Thisbwas the first site I ever posted in and had hoped I only chosen decent, real questions that deserved an answer and always try to be respectful. I go to forums other than the Newbie and read the posts and answers and try to leaarn new things. I didn't start collecting to strike it rich with my pocket change,  I started to fill my time, but not already being wealthy as aparently most of you are, I cannot buy lavish perfect ancient coins without first finding that major error first to start funding myself. Hell, when I started I hadn't even heard of an error coin. But once I had then yes, that is what I need to start getting what I want, if that makes sense to any of you. But after reading what many of you think about me and my like i say to myself, what's the point?  Why even bother? I obviously can no longer ask about anything I find for fear that I will appear stupid or as a money grubber. Thanks y'all. Time to find a new way to fill my time.

Karen, there is a world of difference between your posts and the ones that some of us find objectionable. If you poke around you will find a number of posts from folks who clearly only want to make a buck - they often say so. You will also see "error" coins that are obviously damaged so badly that it's really impossible to believe that the person posting is serious. Hang in there. 

[Mohawk]

2 hours ago, LINCOLNMAN said:

Karen, there is a world of difference between your posts and the ones that some of us find objectionable. If you poke around you will find a number of posts from folks who clearly only want to make a buck - they often say so. You will also see "error" coins that are obviously damaged so badly that it's really impossible to believe that the person posting is serious. Hang in there. 

Absolutely 100% agreed Karen.  You're a new collector, not one of these people that Lincolnman is referring to.  Please see the PM I sent you as well and know that you were absolutely NOT one of those being referred to in that thread at all.

[physics-fan3.14]

On 6/11/2018 at 6:39 PM, Davids5104 said:

I emailed NGC to add a forum that is titled "is this an error".  I am no longer posting until something is done.....present occurrence excluded.  

I think the "Newbie coin collecting questions" has helped quite a bit with that. 

On 6/22/2018 at 3:16 PM, coinman1794 said:

The new website absolutely killed the NGC forum. It has not recovered.

This is one of the biggest reasons I haven't posted here much. The website is just so awful. I came back to see if things had improved, but they haven't really changed much. 

The other thing that has soured people on NGC is a string of business decisions over the past couple of years that really turned people off. I predicted at the time that they would alienate long-time NGC loyalists, and I was right.