Has this 44 Steel been fooled with?

[KarenHolcomb]

I got this yesterday. Why is it peeling? Tell me it isn't painted and I will be happy.  And while I'm here, what about the raised area near the O. Oh! If it's not fake, is that doubling at the 9, 3, and around the nose?

[JKK]

I think it's been re-zinced and otherwise dinked around with. I don't think it has any monetary value but can be interesting as an example of how coins get mistreated.

[KarenHolcomb]

12 hours ago, JKK said:

I think it's been re-zinced and otherwise dinked around with. I don't think it has any monetary value but can be interesting as an example of how coins get mistreated.

Yeah, I thought something was hinkie with it and knew it wasn't a special one, but with so many around idky someone would fake it. Crazy.

[JKK]

1 hour ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Yeah, I thought something was hinkie with it and knew it wasn't a special one, but with so many around idky someone would fake it. Crazy.

I've run into a lot of shabbily re-zinced or otherwise altered steelies over the years. The zinc develops a nasty patina that is problematic to remove, and where it wears off or chips away, the underlying steel will begin to rust on contact with environmental water. Truly original uncirculated steelies are things of beauty (I have a set and I love that original color).

[KarenHolcomb]

12 hours ago, JKK said:

I've run into a lot of shabbily re-zinced or otherwise altered steelies over the years. The zinc develops a nasty patina that is problematic to remove, and where it wears off or chips away, the underlying steel will begin to rust on contact with environmental water. Truly original uncirculated steelies are things of beauty (I have a set and I love that original color).

I have only ever seen one. This would have been my first. I am sorely disappointed.

[DWLange]

The raised line on the reverse of your cent is a die-clash impression. The outline of Lincoln's profile was transferred to the reverse die when the two dies came together without a planchet between them.

[KarenHolcomb]

1 hour ago, DWLange said:

The raised line on the reverse of your cent is a die-clash impression. The outline of Lincoln's profile was transferred to the reverse die when the two dies came together without a planchet between them.

So then you don't think someone has faked it?  I have wondered what a die clash would look like. I am so new that I've never seen a major defect of any kind yet, so if you are correct this will be my first big defect on my first steel cent. What do you say about the Obverse side?

[DWLange]

I can't be certain without seeing the coin in person, but I suspect that it was a "processed" cent. In the 1950s-60s many thousands of steel cents were stripped of their original zinc coating and replated with either zinc or mercury. This was done outside the mint to make them more marketable to newbie collectors. The outer layer appears to have chipped away.

[bsshog40]

As I don't like to doubt David's knowledge, I'm curious as to what the clash would be? The only thing that would line up with that is the field behind Lincolns head and neck. If the field was pressed that hard, wouldn't the Liberty have clashed also? 

[Conder101]

One thing you can look for to see if it has been reprocessed is the edge of the coin.  The steel cent blanks were punched out of a sheet of galvanized steel,  That means the zinc plating is only on the obverse and reverse faces.  The edge will show the steel core and just the thin layers of zinc top and bottom (the metals are slightly different colors and as the steel oxidizes on circulated coins the contrast increases). When the cents are reprocessed the entire coin is replated and that layering effect on the edge is lost making it all one color.

[KarenHolcomb]

2 hours ago, Conder101 said:

One thing you can look for to see if it has been reprocessed is the edge of the coin.  The steel cent blanks were punched out of a sheet of galvanized steel,  That means the zinc plating is only on the obverse and reverse faces.  The edge will show the steel core and just the thin layers of zinc top and bottom (the metals are slightly different colors and as the steel oxidizes on circulated coins the contrast increases). When the cents are reprocessed the entire coin is replated and that layering effect on the edge is lost making it all one color.

That is good information. Now why do they bother? Really just to fool newbies like me? What about the ones that look like they've been painted? Is that the same thing?

[Conder101]

Because newbies and non-collectors who didn't live through it hear about the steel cent through various sources and become interested is seeing one,  Now you show them a dull or rusted circulated piece (that they could get for close to 5 cents) they lose interest.  But you show them a replated piece that is good looking and perhaps "shiny" they don't know it is a circulated coin, (they aren't trained to look for signs of wear), and they may find it "impressive", "a piece of history", "something grandma told me about" etc and they find they can own it for just a couple dollars, they buy it.  So yes its to fool newbies or non-collectors, definitely not to fool experienced collectors.  There's a market there and people fill it.

[KarenHolcomb]

2 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

Because newbies and non-collectors who didn't live through it hear about the steel cent through various sources and become interested is seeing one,  Now you show them a dull or rusted circulated piece (that they could get for close to 5 cents) they lose interest.  But you show them a replated piece that is good looking and perhaps "shiny" they don't know it is a circulated coin, (they aren't trained to look for signs of wear), and they may find it "impressive", "a piece of history", "something grandma told me about" etc and they find they can own it for just a couple dollars, they buy it.  So yes its to fool newbies or non-collectors, definitely not to fool experienced collectors.  There's a market there and people fill it.

Smdh. That's a horrible way to treat people but anything to make a couoke of bucks, right?  Thanks for not sugar coating, I hate fake sugar. Especially slenda.

[JKK]

2 hours ago, KarenHolcomb said:

Smdh. That's a horrible way to treat people but anything to make a couoke of bucks, right?  Thanks for not sugar coating, I hate fake sugar. Especially slenda.

As you grow more coin-aware, when you wander through antique malls, keep an eye out for the coin displays. At times you might see, for example, a display of Mercury dimes that just look brilliant. When you see a lot of flash in the case, especially in a location where numismatics are an overall secondary subject, take a look at one of the coins. You may see that they are in fact heavily worn, but have been whizzed (mechanically cleaned, probably with a dremel) to look ooh shiny. Once you start looking for fullness of original detail, a flat-worn coin will stand out to you even more if it has been whizzed, because a flat-worn silver coin should have a moderately dull gray patina. On copper it often colors up to a dark chocolate truffle color that's just gorgeous (my opinion).

Obviously, once you see that someone's got a display of ooh shinies, and you take a good look at them and see that they are worn, congratulations: you've found one of the kind of bunco schemes Conder was describing. Don't bother saying anything to the vendor; they won't care. But if you check out the prices, odds are you'll be seeing MS prices for cleaned G coins that (if actually silver) should sell for melt or nearabouts. Learning to grade coins, to know what is original and how the coin would have looked when first minted, is of enormous importance.

Simplest approach: anything that looks unnaturally good may in fact be unnatural on some level, and deserves a closer look. That would include a bright shiny steelie. The workmanship of the re-zincing is highly variable.

[KarenHolcomb]

2 hours ago, JKK said:

As you grow more coin-aware, when you wander through antique malls, keep an eye out for the coin displays. At times you might see, for example, a display of Mercury dimes that just look brilliant. When you see a lot of flash in the case, especially in a location where numismatics are an overall secondary subject, take a look at one of the coins. You may see that they are in fact heavily worn, but have been whizzed (mechanically cleaned, probably with a dremel) to look ooh shiny. Once you start looking for fullness of original detail, a flat-worn coin will stand out to you even more if it has been whizzed, because a flat-worn silver coin should have a moderately dull gray patina. On copper it often colors up to a dark chocolate truffle color that's just gorgeous (my opinion).

Obviously, once you see that someone's got a display of ooh shinies, and you take a good look at them and see that they are worn, congratulations: you've found one of the kind of bunco schemes Conder was describing. Don't bother saying anything to the vendor; they won't care. But if you check out the prices, odds are you'll be seeing MS prices for cleaned G coins that (if actually silver) should sell for melt or nearabouts. Learning to grade coins, to know what is original and how the coin would have looked when first minted, is of enormous importance.

Simplest approach: anything that looks unnaturally good may in fact be unnatural on some level, and deserves a closer look. That would include a bright shiny steelie. The workmanship of the re-zincing is highly variable.

JKK, That is great advice. I havebeen using the PCGS PhotoGrade to self grade my coins and hope that I'm getting better. I've also been using their coinfacts app-which I haven't spent enough time on to quite understand what the heck they're talking about, i get the gist, but it's too much at once. Anyway, I've pretty much decided that auctions are my best bet for raw coin purchases and plan to start attending them regularly to see if it's the same people all the time etc.

[Just Bob]

On 5/22/2018 at 9:43 PM, bsshog40 said:

As I don't like to doubt David's knowledge, I'm curious as to what the clash would be? The only thing that would line up with that is the field behind Lincolns head and neck. If the field was pressed that hard, wouldn't the Liberty have clashed also? 

Since LIBERTY was cut into the die, it would not have touched the surface of the reverse die, so it would not have left an impression. The part that impressed into the reverse die, and thus was transferred to the coins minted after that, would have been the field, which is the highest part of the die.

It gets kind of confusing trying to think in mirror images and negatives. When the picture was first posted, I spent about ten minutes turning the picture around and trying to find where the chin and bow tie fit, until I figured out that it was the back of his head, and not the front, that I was looking at.

[KarenHolcomb]

Hey JKK! Let's see some photos of your set. 

Also, and this will maybe sound stupid but I'm gonna ask anyway because I didn't really understand all that was said above at the time  y'all said it. And now I kind of do understand and am wondering that since steel '43's were all the rage back when people were replating them and my particular coin is replated, because it was all the rage, isn't it then possible that this is actually a copper '43 that was replated because of the trend? Because it darn sure does look cooper there where it is pealed off. Wouldn't that be horrible?