Bummed Collector

[FairTradeAct_1935]

7 hours ago, Just Bob said:

Just to be clear, Mumu isn't talking about trying to deceive someone by allowing the toning to cover the whizzing. What he is suggesting is carrying these coins around in your pocket with other change, and having them wear naturally, just as any coin would, until the whizzing is worn off. This would be considered honest wear, at least in my opinion, and would in no way be ripping someone off, should you eventually decide to sell.

Shooooot ripping off/deceiving a collector or people in general is never my intention or will be. I understand what he’s saying. I plan on keeping them, store them with the rest of my coins, and continue to find unaltered replacements. Thank you for pointing that out for future peeps that visit this thread..much respect 

[Conder101]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:57 AM, WoodenJefferson said:

...you'd see me camped out at the dealers door with graded coin, receipt of what I paid for said coin raw, realistic prices for now certified coin and demand some action. All monies back, partial refund from estimated grade and actual grade, something financial or pick out another coin in display case that makes up the difference. 

If you don't have a written guarantee from the dealer that they would straight grade from the TPG, you don't have a claim against him. Exception being that since they were apparently purchased by mail once they arrived you had the chance to see them and if you didn't like them to send them back. Personally, once they been removed from the dealers holder you have no claim.

[BillJones]

As promised here is a Flying Eagle Cent that got a straight grade. This one is graded by PCGS as an MS-65.

The finish on these coins is not bright and shiny; it is a satin like finish. There is mint luster, but it is not bright.

[BillJones]

Here is second one that NGC graded MS-64.

 

[BillJones]

Here is a little piece of history for you. Although James Longacre gets the credit from the Flying Eagle Cent design, he "borrowed" it from another designer, Christian Gobrecht. Here is the first appearance of the Flying Eagle which was introduced on the reverse of the 1836 Gobrecht Dollar.

I have to warn you that this is a very pricey coin in any grade. Even damaged pieces that do not get a straight grade are expensive.

 

[FairTradeAct_1935]

1 hour ago, BillJones said:

As promised here is a Flying Eagle Cent that got a straight grade. This one is graded by PCGS as an MS-65.

The finish on these coins is not bright and shiny; it is a satin like finish. There is mint luster, but it is not bright.

WOW!!!! Those are absolutely gorgeous!!! That's what I am striving for and man bravo zulu to your coins. I love the design of the F.E  and eventually I might be able to afford one of those...lol...again thank you for educating me on "satin" finish. AWESOME coins!!!

[FairTradeAct_1935]

1 hour ago, BillJones said:

Here is a little piece of history for you. Although James Longacre gets the credit from the Flying Eagle Cent design, he "borrowed" it from another designer, Christian Gobrecht. Here is the first appearance of the Flying Eagle which was introduced on the reverse of the 1836 Gobrecht Dollar.

I have to warn you that this is a very pricey coin in any grade. Even damaged pieces that do not get a straight grade are expensive.

 

I've read about this coin and this specimen is just silly!!! Again Bravo Zulu to your beautiful coins...man...just so impressive

[FairTradeAct_1935]

NOTE: I would like to take this opportunity to state that my intentions were not to mess on those sellers mentioned earlier. I've been in contact with them and it is what it is and I'm chalking it up as a learning lesson. It's my understanding these are legit dealers/sellers trying to make a decent dime and living. I was just mad and let my emotions get the best of me. Again please don't judge them off of my experience. 

Respectfully,...Dan

[WoodenJefferson]

If they 'knew' they were selling a altered (enhanced) coin, then I still think they took you to the cleaners.

[BillJones]

1 hour ago, FairTradeAct_1935 said:

NOTE: I would like to take this opportunity to state that my intentions were not to mess on those sellers mentioned earlier. I've been in contact with them and it is what it is and I'm chalking it up as a learning lesson. It's my understanding these are legit dealers/sellers trying to make a decent dime and living. I was just mad and let my emotions get the best of me. Again please don't judge them off of my experience. 

Respectfully,...Dan

Any dealer who says that he is a "professional" would know that the Flying Eagle Cents they sold to you were problem coins. The second one screams "WHIZZED!!!!"

I don’t know how the American Numismatic Association works now, but if they are members, they would have been forced to refund your money, or they would lose their membership and have it announced in their magazine “The Numismatist” that they had been kicked out and why.

If they have any ability to grade coins at all, they knew darn well what they were selling you.

[FairTradeAct_1935]

2 hours ago, BillJones said:

Any dealer who says that he is a "professional" would know that the Flying Eagle Cents they sold to you were problem coins. The second one screams "WHIZZED!!!!"

I don’t know how the American Numismatic Association works now, but if they are members, they would have been forced to refund your money, or they would lose their membership and have it announced in their magazine “The Numismatist” that they had been kicked out and why.

If they have any ability to grade coins at all, they knew darn well what they were selling you.

I appreciate your advice and like I stated before this is a lesson learned. I’ve learned so much about “whizzing” ever since the slab. I never new what it was nor heard but read up everything I could find on the subject. From NGC,ANA, and PCG forums, to my cherry picker book that came in a few days ago. Greatly appreciate the advice and insight 

[mumu]

Light whizzing can be hard to detect with the eye and even a loupe compared to a full polishing, even with just a polish glove. but on the plus side its easier to get out with normal wear compared to a full polish with scratches.

[Bozeman]

C'mon.  Only buy slabbed coins?  Why didn't the seller have this coin certified?  That's the no-fun path.  That's like hunting big game animals that have been tamed and tied up in a Texas game reserve.  A big chunk of the fun is the hunt - seeking out bargains, using your expertise, acting quickly when the time is right...

[BillJones]

5 hours ago, Bozeman said:

C'mon.  Only buy slabbed coins?  Why didn't the seller have this coin certified?  That's the no-fun path.  That's like hunting big game animals that have been tamed and tied up in a Texas game reserve.  A big chunk of the fun is the hunt - seeking out bargains, using your expertise, acting quickly when the time is right...

If you take this advice, you had better be an expert grader and very adept at spotting problem coins and especially counterfeits. With the Chinese counterfeit menace in high gear, the chances of getting stuck with bogus coins are higher than ever. I have been a collector since the early 1960s and was a dealer for over ten years, and I have never seen the situation as bad as it has been over the past five years.

When you buy a certified coin from a reputable grading company, you have an excellent chance of getting reimbursed if the item turns out to be a fake. When you buy an uncertified coin, you are at the mercy of the person or company that sold it to you. 

If you think that losing money and getting stuck with counterfeits and problem coins is "fun," then take Bozeman's advice.  If you are still in the fundamental learning phase of the hobby, you will take my advice. Furthermore join a club and hook up with some experienced collectors and dealers. Learning on your own can be very expensive.

[Bozeman]

Of course you must learn to grade!  The slab may save you from buying a counterfeit but it won't always save you from buying an over-graded - thus overpriced - coin.  Of course you must learn to identify problem coins and counterfeits!  Buy the book before the coin and all that...  Will you make mistakes along the way?  Sure, but that's part of learning.  You can't be a coin collector without committing yourself to the learning process.

With that stated, there are coins that I wouldn't touch raw.  Like $3 gold pieces or most coins over $500.  In those cases, I agree the risk is typically too great.  But at the lower end of the market?  The slab just adds to the cost and detracts from the fun.

[Conder101]

18 hours ago, BillJones said:

When you buy a certified coin from a reputable grading company, you have an excellent chance of getting reimbursed if the item turns out to be a fake.

Unless the slab turns out to be fake, which can happen, and which I also expect to become more commonplace in the future.

5 hours ago, Bozeman said:

The slab may save you from buying a counterfeit

Once again unless the slab is fake, in which case you may get both a fake slab and a fake coin.  Also the fakes are getting good enough that they are getting past the TPG's and into  genuine slabs.  A slab in no longer a guarantee that the coin isn't a fake.  At the moment it is still a rare occurrence, but for how much longer?

[mumu]

CAC should start stickering raw coins. Then you can call JA directly to ask about the coin like everyone says.

[BillJones]

11 hours ago, Bozeman said:

Of course you must learn to grade!  The slab may save you from buying a counterfeit but it won't always save you from buying an over-graded - thus overpriced - coin.  Of course you must learn to identify problem coins and counterfeits!  Buy the book before the coin and all that...  Will you make mistakes along the way?  Sure, but that's part of learning.  You can't be a coin collector without committing yourself to the learning process.

With that stated, there are coins that I wouldn't touch raw.  Like $3 gold pieces or most coins over $500.  In those cases, I agree the risk is typically too great.  But at the lower end of the market?  The slab just adds to the cost and detracts from the fun.

We agree on those points. Slabs don't make much sense for low priced coins unless you are looking to complete a registry set, which I was doing a few years ago. I think that I am still the only collector who has a complete U.S. type set on the NGC registry.

[BillJones]

6 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Unless the slab turns out to be fake, which can happen, and which I also expect to become more commonplace in the future.

Once again unless the slab is fake, in which case you may get both a fake slab and a fake coin.  Also the fakes are getting good enough that they are getting past the TPG's and into  genuine slabs.  A slab in no longer a guarantee that the coin isn't a fake.  At the moment it is still a rare occurrence, but for how much longer?

When it gets that bad, this hobby is doomed.

[wvucoinman]

First, contact the seller and try to work things out with them.  If you want to keep the coins ask the seller to reimburse you or at least split the cost of grading, original purchase price, or some type of compensation.  If you can not resolve the problem with the seller then call ebay.   Ebay offers buyer protection.  All you have to do is file a complaint stating that the item is not as described.  If you paid through Paypal, Paypal also offers buyer protection and will help you to resolve the problem with the buyer.  The downside of this is that both ebay and paypal will probably only refund you the original purchase.  I doubt if they will refund the money to have them graded.  Also, sellers hate negative feedback on ebay.

[World Colonial]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 2:36 AM, Bozeman said:

C'mon.  Only buy slabbed coins?  Why didn't the seller have this coin certified?  That's the no-fun path.  That's like hunting big game animals that have been tamed and tied up in a Texas game reserve.  A big chunk of the fun is the hunt - seeking out bargains, using your expertise, acting quickly when the time is right...

There is a difference between buying ungraded coins in person versus without inspection which is what the OP did in this instance.  With the overwhelming majority of US coins, there isn't going to be any difficulty in finding an example which most collectors in the past would have found acceptable, though this applies less now since there is a common tendency to exaggerate the significance of minor differences.  For this reason alone, I'd only buy  a US coin ungraded sight unseen above a nominal price if I trusted the seller.

[Bozeman]

1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

For this reason alone, I'd only buy  a US coin ungraded sight unseen above a nominal price if I trusted the seller.

I absolutely agree that developing a list of trusted sellers is a key part of the process.

[dleonard-3]

That 1858 "LOOKS" amazing, and I would be proud to own it.  But the value would have to be around the XF level.  I have purchased quite a few early Lincolns, Indians, FE's, and even Large Cents and Half Cents that have been cleaned, wizzed, or with "altered surfaces", because they looked great to me.  Obviously, if they were slabbed as such, I paid very low prices for them because I understand that they will be nearly impossible to re-sell.  Any un-slabbed coins that look that nice are automatic red flags to me, and I always assume they have been messed with and I downgrade them accordingly.  Occasionally, I'll get lucky and get a good one that comes back graded.

[FairTradeAct_1935]

1 hour ago, dleonard-3 said:

That 1858 "LOOKS" amazing, and I would be proud to own it.  But the value would have to be around the XF level.  I have purchased quite a few early Lincolns, Indians, FE's, and even Large Cents and Half Cents that have been cleaned, wizzed, or with "altered surfaces", because they looked great to me.  Obviously, if they were slabbed as such, I paid very low prices for them because I understand that they will be nearly impossible to re-sell.  Any un-slabbed coins that look that nice are automatic red flags to me, and I always assume they have been messed with and I downgrade them accordingly.  Occasionally, I'll get lucky and get a good one that comes back graded.

Actually ever since this forum started I've been scouring E-scam and various other spots to purchase coins and noticed/spot the majority of the cleaned (at some point in it's life) coins. I've messages seller who are asking for "Best Offers" and I still throw them XF prices b/c I still want fillers for my sets. The majority of responses are negative b/c these sellers know they are cleaned and still expect stupid $$$.  One seller is trying to off load a 1908s that you can tell was altered, cleaned for a high price. He/She listing it around $250.00. I came in a low number and they seemed pissed. I mentioned it was cleaned and they agreed but still said somebody will still buy it around their asking price. 

I replied my offer still stands if you can't find a buyer. Haven't heard from them yet and the coin is still listed...Ohh well. 

[Just Bob]

51 minutes ago, FairTradeAct_1935 said:

 I mentioned it was cleaned and they agreed but still said somebody will still buy it around their asking price. 

 

A dishonest person/scammer does not have to fool every one. They only have to fool one.

[MarkFeld]

4 hours ago, dleonard-3 said:

That 1858 "LOOKS" amazing, and I would be proud to own it.  But the value would have to be around the XF level.  I have purchased quite a few early Lincolns, Indians, FE's, and even Large Cents and Half Cents that have been cleaned, wizzed, or with "altered surfaces", because they looked great to me.  Obviously, if they were slabbed as such, I paid very low prices for them because I understand that they will be nearly impossible to re-sell.  Any un-slabbed coins that look that nice are automatic red flags to me, and I always assume they have been messed with and I downgrade them accordingly.  Occasionally, I'll get lucky and get a good one that comes back graded.

A whizzed AU details example is not worth XF money.

[FairTradeAct_1935]

32 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

A whizzed AU details example is not worth XF money.

From what I’ve read and spoken too, most would agree a “whizzed” coin is destroyed unless by a small chance and depending how whizzed. The coin could be saved from pocket changing it for awhile.  Then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder 

[BillJones]

17 hours ago, dleonard-3 said:

That 1858 "LOOKS" amazing, and I would be proud to own it.  But the value would have to be around the XF level.  I have purchased quite a few early Lincolns, Indians, FE's, and even Large Cents and Half Cents that have been cleaned, wizzed, or with "altered surfaces", because they looked great to me.  Obviously, if they were slabbed as such, I paid very low prices for them because I understand that they will be nearly impossible to re-sell.  Any un-slabbed coins that look that nice are automatic red flags to me, and I always assume they have been messed with and I downgrade them accordingly.  Occasionally, I'll get lucky and get a good one that comes back graded.

That coin only looks "amazing" to inexperienced collectors. To the more advanced collectors, it is depressing because the coin has been seriously damaged (i.e. ruined) by someone who had the intent to defraud an inexperienced collector.

Once you have gained an appreciation for attactive coins with original surfaces, you interest in this material will vanish. Once you have lost a lot of money on an altered coin, you admiration will fade.

Collectors buy coins to enjoy them, but there is also the prospect of recovering your investment or even making a little money. The trouble with pieces like that 1858 Flying Eagle Cent is that the whizzing will aways drag the price down. When others are getting their money back when they sell or perhaps make a little something extra, the owner of the piece will be sitting, pretty much dead in the water, unless the price for no problem pieces has gone up considerabely.

[Bobsr]

Ok FairTradeAct_1935. 

!st Why did you buy the coins? Because you liked them ! Buy the coin Not the Slab. Those are very good looking coins. Yes, you may have paid too much for the grade but you didn't pay too much for the coin or you wouldn't have purchased them in the 1st place. Be happy with the coin. You didn't buy them for an investment, you bought them because you liked them. That is what collecting is all about. Not saying its right or giving credibility to unscrupulous dealers, just saying sometimes as collectors we get less than what we paid for but the joy is in collecting. If you're going to collect for investment then you should only buy from local dealers you have developed a relationship with or buy certified coins from reputable TPG's. I have bought numerous coins from people here on the board and not once have I been disappointed. I don't buy anything from online sources I know nothing about, period. No matter how cheap or how good the deal is. Just sayin.

Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs

[BillJones]

If one becomes a serious collector, he or she will not be happy with that 1858 cent once they learn what is good and what isn't. You could buy a complete set of Chinese counterfeit Seated Dollars in a counterfeit Dansco holder. That might look nice to some people, but in the end, you have a book full of base metal disks. You need to learn what is good and what isn't. After that if you want to buy problems then have it. It's better to know the reality of the situation.