coinman1794 4,871 posts Report post Posted July 28, 2018 3 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said: No, PCGS will only label PL on Morgan dollars, and a few other series (like modern UHR gold). There are a few rare pieces which PCGS has labelled as PL, but generally they don't. NGC, on the other hand, designates any US or World coin as PL if it warrants it. Roger, you are assuming there is a standard for PL coins. There isn't. It isn't published anywhere, because there is no standard. The graders decide if they feel a coin has mirrors strong enough to warrant a PL, and that can vary from series to series. The mirrors on a PL Buffalo, or a PL Capped Bust Half, or a PL Liberty $20, are not comparable. We as collectors like to believe there is a standard (measured in "inches of reflectivity"), but that is not the case. Jason, nice to see you back! And I'm also glad you brought up that point. It is not possible to measure the reflective of a Roosevelt dime in the same manner as a Morgan Dollar. The surfaces are very different, and yet you know a PL when you see one. In fact, PL silver Roosevelt dimes and Silver Washington quarters look very much like brilliant Proofs of the period, which again, look nothing like Morgan Dollars. Finally, Satin Proofs are technically Proofs but are not traditional, and I think they came onto the scene well after brilliant Proofs. This could easily explain why we don't refer to satin coins as PL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
numisport 856 posts Report post Posted July 28, 2018 One problem with using Morgan Dollars as a standard for prooflike mirror depth is that Morgans don't typically display the sometimes heavy die polish that Framklins, Roosevelts and the rest always have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coinman1794 4,871 posts Report post Posted July 28, 2018 The size and contour of the fields are what make it difficult to compare. The polished PL finish seen between 1934 and 1954 is unique, but the polishing lines disappear at certain angles and don't really affect the mirrors, unless of course the dies have advanced beyond the PL stages. In other words, it is the errosion of the surfaces over time, and not the polishing lines, that causes these coins to miss the PL designation. If the mirrors are no longer there, the coin is not PL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RWB 11,914 posts Report post Posted August 13, 2018 I fully agree that there is/are no standards for PL --- and that is the rather cynical point of my earlier comment. :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t-arc 203 posts Report post Posted September 4, 2018 I have an ICG MS67 buffalo nickel which is fully prooflike. There is one die pair that has this complete proof like lustre to it and I suspect that these may have been specially prepared dies that were used to strike some really nice coins at the end of the 25 year run of the buffalo nickel. Very few seem to show up and I have never run into any au or xf examples from these dies, meaning they did not appear to have been released into circulation. Also the 1934-d and 1935-d on rare occasions also show up proof like. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
t-arc 203 posts Report post Posted September 4, 2018 And I have also run into 1936, 1937, and 1937d examples which were PL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
physics-fan3.14 14,836 posts Report post Posted September 4, 2018 20 minutes ago, t-arc said: I have an ICG MS67 buffalo nickel which is fully prooflike. There is one die pair that has this complete proof like lustre to it and I suspect that these may have been specially prepared dies that were used to strike some really nice coins at the end of the 25 year run of the buffalo nickel. Very few seem to show up and I have never run into any au or xf examples from these dies, meaning they did not appear to have been released into circulation. Also the 1934-d and 1935-d on rare occasions also show up proof like. Pics? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mk123 271 posts Report post Posted September 5, 2018 besides the OPs pics, noone has posted any other PL buffs......their has to be some out there!! t-arc, post pics please! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old-school 31 posts Report post Posted September 10, 2018 Grading is subjective, and unless I'm mistaken, that includes PL designations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coinman1794 4,871 posts Report post Posted September 11, 2018 On 9/5/2018 at 1:45 AM, Mk123 said: besides the OPs pics, no one has posted any other PL buffs......their has to be some out there!! t-arc, post pics please! I found this recently. The obverse is noticeably glossy, but the reverse is actually right on the cusp of PL, with watery reflective fields all around the buffalo. If both sides were like the reverse, it could conceivably make PL at NGC. Oh well. 3 rrantique, Old-school and Mk123 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mk123 271 posts Report post Posted September 11, 2018 coinman, the buff you just posted, what grade was it? Looks amazing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rrantique 8,045 posts Report post Posted September 12, 2018 1 Old-school reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coinman1794 4,871 posts Report post Posted September 12, 2018 4 hours ago, Mk123 said: coinman, the buff you just posted, what grade was it? Looks amazing! Thank you! This is currently in an older PCGS MS64 slab. It looks gem+ to me, and I am tempted to send it to NGC if it does not sell, to see if it earns a Star. 1 Mk123 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mk123 271 posts Report post Posted September 12, 2018 ahh I see the coin now.........very tempting....:) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
physics-fan3.14 14,836 posts Report post Posted September 13, 2018 There's an AU-58 PL on Ebay right now for $7800!!!!!!! That's ridiculous. 1 1 rrantique and coinman_23885 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coinman1794 4,871 posts Report post Posted September 13, 2018 10 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said: There's an AU-58 PL on Ebay right now for $7800!!!!!!! That's ridiculous. I would say so. 1 coinman_23885 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coinman_23885 9,083 posts Report post Posted September 20, 2018 On 9/13/2018 at 7:47 AM, physics-fan3.14 said: There's an AU-58 PL on Ebay right now for $7800!!!!!!! That's ridiculous. I agree. It is now listed with Park Avenue Numismatics. If it sells for anywhere near that amount, I will wet my pants as it would provide pricing data that could only be helpful to me some day. I think my MS63 PL coin has nicer mirrors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
numisport 856 posts Report post Posted September 21, 2018 7 hours ago, coinman_23885 said: I agree. It is now listed with Park Avenue Numismatics. If it sells for anywhere near that amount, I will wet my pants as it would provide pricing data that could only be helpful to me some day. I think my MS63 PL coin has nicer mirrors. coinman I looked at the NGC image of your coin which I think is a relatively good image close up. Its a superb coin for sure. IMO these prices are too high even given relative rarity. Consider that a few of these likely reside in PCGS holders owned by cultists that don't know any better. There may even be high grade coins that exist in those holders. How far off am I ? 1 coinman_23885 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coinman_23885 9,083 posts Report post Posted September 21, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, numisport said: coinman I looked at the NGC image of your coin which I think is a relatively good image close up. Its a superb coin for sure. IMO these prices are too high even given relative rarity. Consider that a few of these likely reside in PCGS holders owned by cultists that don't know any better. There may even be high grade coins that exist in those holderthe s. How far off am I ? I agree there is a major problem in determining populations given that PCGS will not attribute PL buffalo nickels. I have never seen a nickel in a PCGS holder close to mine, but with tens of thousands of coins certified, there is no way to say definitively. As for auction records, there are none so the first person to sell one at a fixed price or who is brave enough to face a no reserve auction will ultimately set the market. The price sounds very high especially for the grade to me, and my personal interest level in PL coinage is nowhere near that for any 20th century coin. I think they are trying to extrapolate from other rare PL series (e.g. Peace Dollars), but it is unclear that a PL buffalo would fetch anywhere near what the PL Peace Dollars do even though the nickels are rarer in PL. I hope they do sell it successfully for $7,500 but that would be a fantasy for me. Edited September 21, 2018 by coinman_23885 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
physics-fan3.14 14,836 posts Report post Posted September 21, 2018 Well, they have a Peace Dollar in 65PL listed for $75,000..... which is also equally insane. 1 Mk123 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mk123 271 posts Report post Posted September 21, 2018 coinman you should put yours on auction and let the market determine its value! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
numisport 856 posts Report post Posted September 22, 2018 12 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said: Well, they have a Peace Dollar in 65PL listed for $75,000..... which is also equally insane. Can you provide a link ? Who's selling it ? Is it prooflike enough for Roger..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
physics-fan3.14 14,836 posts Report post Posted September 22, 2018 I have no idea how reflective it is in hand, but this is the link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-S-1-PL-Peace-Dollar-NGC-MS65PL-Certified-US-Rare-Coin/302812465081?epid=170406386&hash=item46810787b9:g:ktgAAOSw0HhbUkYe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
numisport 856 posts Report post Posted September 22, 2018 (edited) I remember this coin from an earlier thread, thanks. Still way way way too much money but what the heck it is a Peace Dollar ! Some may think this is a tangible investment I think it would be interesting to hear Ms. Sperber comment as to why this Peace Dollar and the 37-D Buffalo Nickel are 'not marketable' in NGC holders. Edited September 22, 2018 by numisport Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mk123 271 posts Report post Posted September 22, 2018 Now that is a beautiful peace..........love those die polish lines!!! @numisport She would probably call them dreck or want PCGS and CACs opinion on them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mumu 2,452 posts Report post Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) That P$ and mine are sister coins with sequential cert#s. In hand they are identical except for a mark going across mine's fields keeping it at 64. Roger did not feel they met his criteria, but did find the coins to be special and not regular. Given the listing price of the 65, I feel I got a bargain at 1/10th the price. Though I dont think the coin would get the 75k. Maybe in a PCGS holder where the kool aid adds value. But I also dont think the seller is motivated to sell it at a lower price. Beautiful coin. I got to see it at the Philadelphia show. Edited October 3, 2018 by mumu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisH821 24 posts Report post Posted November 2, 2018 (edited) Resurrecting and bringing us back to PL Buffs. I've got a 36 that I think might warrant a PL designation. Currently resides in a PC66 holder. I'll try to make a decent animated gif or something to better show the reflectivity than still pictures. I should add, I had a heck of a time getting decent photos of this coin. Edited November 2, 2018 by ChrisH821 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffalo Head 1,864 posts Report post Posted November 2, 2018 I have a couple of Buffs in pcgs holders that look PL to me but pcgs doesn’t, as far as I know, designate PL to buffalo nickels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisH821 24 posts Report post Posted November 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, Buffalo Head said: I have a couple of Buffs in pcgs holders that look PL to me but pcgs doesn’t, as far as I know, designate PL to buffalo nickels. Agree, I'd cross it just for the designation though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buffalo Head 1,864 posts Report post Posted November 2, 2018 3 hours ago, ChrisH821 said: Agree, I'd cross it just for the designation though. Pretty good idea to cross it and way to go getting that designation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
