Where are all the NGC coins

[numisport]

A quick look at internet dealer stock reveals mostly or nearly all coins offered are PCGS coins. Rick Tomaska is one of few that offer both and even ANACS coins. Why are so many PCGS coins for sale ? Take a look at pop reports and I see similar numbers of coins in NGC and PCGS grades yet NGC coins are rarely offered. Look at Charmy's newps and see only PCGS coins. Legend only buys and sells PCGS coins and on and on you know. Is there a little secret about NGC coin values other that the same old 'PCGS coins are worth more' or 'NGC coins are not marketable' dribble I've heard for years. Personally I have seen a lot of PCGS mistakes of late and my NGC coins are superior to many PCGS like examples. I would like to hear other opinions on the 'elusive NGC coins'.

[thebeav]

I've never been one that drank the PCGS kool aid. I've got plenty of PCGS, NGC and ANACS graded coins. For the most part, I agree with the grade on most every one of them. 

You make an interesting observation. I can't imagine why it is that way however.

(As I'm typing this, a rectangular box, that I could type in, called 'spoiler' is under what I'm writing. Any idea what that is ?)

Spoiler

 

 

[rrantique]

The old saying still stands true today buy the coin not the holder. I also have more NGC than PCGS  Anacs,ICG.Segs, and Accugrade. Collection=confidence.

[coinman_23885]

Unfortunately, there is a PCGS premium and the PCGS + CAC combination commands the strongest money in most cases.  As someone who is selling off, resale value is my primary concern.  I have crossed dozens of coins in recent months and have even sacrificed some NGC stars too because of increased liquidity and potential color bumps.  I think NGC went through a lose period and has now tightened considerably.  In fact, I think it as over corrected in many regards.   That is not a recipe for greatest recovery on my investment, especially when grade inflation from earlier holders (of both services) have already driven prices to the ground for many coins.  I think most dealers are crossing over coins to PCGS in droves for the same reasons sometimes even downgrading a NGC coin if necessary to make it more liquid.

[Jaggy]

12 hours ago, coinman_23885 said:

Unfortunately, there is a PCGS premium and the PCGS + CAC combination commands the strongest money in most cases.  As someone who is selling off, resale value is my primary concern.  I have crossed dozens of coins in recent months and have even sacrificed some NGC stars too because of increased liquidity and potential color bumps.  I think NGC went through a lose period and has now tightened considerably.  In fact, I think it as over corrected in many regards.   That is not a recipe for greatest recovery on my investment, especially when grade inflation from earlier holders (of both services) have already driven prices to the ground for many coins.  I think most dealers are crossing over coins to PCGS in droves for the same reasons sometimes even downgrading a NGC coin if necessary to make it more liquid.

This may be true for US coins but, as a collector of UK coins, I have not noticed the same phenomenon whether it be in US auctions or UK ones.

[coinman_23885]

9 hours ago, Jaggy said:

This may be true for US coins but, as a collector of UK coins, I have not noticed the same phenomenon whether it be in US auctions or UK ones.

You're absolutely right.  I was thinking this was posted in the U.S. Coin forum.  My comments were as to U.S. coins only.

[numisport]

I understand you well coinman but I suspect many properly graded NGC coins are tucked away for a while by straight thinking collectors. For instance look in NGC Coin Explorer to view auction prices. Then hit view all auction prices realized for any particular coin and you can see that by far most coins sold are PCGS coins even though certification numbers are similar for NGC graded coins. Then look a little closer yet and recognize that you will see that same PCGS coin sold 3 or 4 times for about the same money. This doesn't assure me that my PCGS coins are more marketable; it tells me that PCGS has overgraded a significant number of coins that nobody wants in their collection, but are still coveted by the cult like PCGS followers. Oh wait maybe that's why there are so many PCGS coins available. 

[Jade Collection]

For world coins I'm seeing a lot of NGC coins for sale, doesn't matter I buy the coin not the holder. 

[Mohawk]

Wow.....I think we could have discussed Mr. Tomaska's shortcomings as a dealer without getting sexual orientation involved......that's just indecent, inappropriate, juvenile and unnecessary.  I'm pretty certain that sexual orientation has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone is a good dealer or a bad dealer. 

[LINCOLNMAN]

I assume that this forum is monitored. Enough said?

[coinman1794]

On 11/22/2017 at 11:21 AM, numisport said:

A quick look at internet dealer stock reveals mostly or nearly all coins offered are PCGS coins. Rick Tomaska is one of few that offer both and even ANACS coins. Why are so many PCGS coins for sale ? Take a look at pop reports and I see similar numbers of coins in NGC and PCGS grades yet NGC coins are rarely offered. Look at Charmy's newps and see only PCGS coins. Legend only buys and sells PCGS coins and on and on you know. Is there a little secret about NGC coin values other that the same old 'PCGS coins are worth more' or 'NGC coins are not marketable' dribble I've heard for years. Personally I have seen a lot of PCGS mistakes of late and my NGC coins are superior to many PCGS like examples. I would like to hear other opinions on the 'elusive NGC coins'.

Sadly, and for what it's worth, the fact that your "NGC coins are superior to many PCGS" coins doesn't change the fact that "PCGS coins are worth more." It has little to do with grading and much to do with marketing.

[World Colonial]

2 hours ago, coinman1794 said:

Sadly, and for what it's worth, the fact that your "NGC coins are superior to many PCGS" coins doesn't change the fact that "PCGS coins are worth more." It has little to do with grading and much to do with marketing.

It is predominantly financial buying which results in this outcome and perception.  The quality differences which are the subject of this thread are numismatic minutia and it isn't uncommon where the price variance is totally disproportionate.

[numisport]

1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

It is predominantly financial buying which results in this outcome and perception.  The quality differences which are the subject of this thread are numismatic minutia and it isn't uncommon where the price variance is totally disproportionate.

Yes I agree with you and understand coinman's statement to be accurate but from a pure collector standpoint I can say I think I got better deals on some NGC coins simply because they were NGC coins. A few of those same premium coins then later CAC'd. Really the true value of any particular coin is what a willing buyer might pay - or some would say fair market value.

[LINCOLNMAN]

23 minutes ago, numisport said:

Yes I agree with you and understand coinman's statement to be accurate but from a pure collector standpoint I can say I think I got better deals on some NGC coins simply because they were NGC coins. A few of those same premium coins then later CAC'd. Really the true value of any particular coin is what a willing buyer might pay - or some would say fair market value.

Looking at auction results for scarcer coins IMO supports the statement that quality still speaks for itself. 

[Capone1929]

[World Colonial]

3 hours ago, LINCOLNMAN said:

Looking at auction results for scarcer coins IMO supports the statement that quality still speaks for itself. 

"Scarcer" is a relative term.  I don't know what coins you have in mind but as an example in a recent Legend Market Report, it mentions a 1910 LHN PR-68 DC CAC which sold for $84,000.  This coin is "appearance scarce" but that's not an actual scarcity.  It is an invented and imaginary one.  There are many US coins like it selling for similar prices which aren't remotely scarce, except under contrived US standards.  It isn't like others that are essentially identical aren't easy to buy, except under the criteria of so many US collectors who exaggerate the difference.

I agree with the point you making as US collectors and buyers see it and I also agree with the sentiments (to a point) in Legend's reports because this firm should be in a position to know.  My interpretation of it is just different.  I don't see this as a positive either for collecting or financially. 

Financially, I consider it a sign of market pricing weakness.  In stock market terms, it is the equivalent of weakening momentum measured by the advance/decline line as fewer stocks participate in an advance.  Since I am not buying any US coins and no one can follow every series or segment, the conclusion I draw from this sentiment is that it's more difficult for more and more collectors to sell the coins they own except at weaker prices.

I'm not trying to sell right now and who knows what the outcome will be when I do.  Concurrently, I'm glad I don't have to bother with what is being discussed in this thread.  While I evaluate the coins I buy in terms of TPG grading and US preferences because US collectors have an outsized financial influence on coins from practically everywhere, I really dislike this result.  The coins I buy have become somewhat more available due to a higher price level but mostly it has just made what I collect less affordable.  Even with what I buy and on the infrequent occasions much of it comes up for sale, it isn't uncommon for the price variances to be disproportionate to any impartial assessment of the quality difference.

If this aspect of US collecting ever becomes prevalent in what I collect, I would like collecting a lot less and I'd seriously consider buying something else.

[Six Mile Rick]

I have seen plenty of NGC modern top pops and older high graded U.S. coins at Great Collections auctions.

I purchased many in May to help out Centurion Collection family sales.

I have already made 40% back in selling a few pieces I acquired from the auctions. 

[Numismatic Bob]

I have mostly NGC coins in my collection and I love all of them equally!! 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I don't care what you guys say or think!

All my coins are NGC.

They're all U.S. Gold 1834 - 1932. (and one 1806)

They're all off the market for the rest of my life; probably even longer.

U.S. Gold looks far superior in NGC.

PCGS looks like baseball card stuff.

Yuck!

[LINCOLNMAN]

10 hours ago, USAuPzlBxBob said:

I don't care what you guys say or think!

All my coins are NGC.

They're all U.S. Gold 1834 - 1932. (and one 1806)

They're all off the market for the rest of my life; probably even longer.

U.S. Gold looks far superior in NGC.

PCGS looks like baseball card stuff.

Yuck!

I don't have much gold, but I agree. In fact, the NGC holder just looks "classier" in general, IMO. I like the baseball card analogy. The one gold coin that I have in PCGS plastic will be crossed when economical. 

[Capone1929]

Well really the first NGC coin I bought was and is a gold coin, that is in the "gold" NGC slab, I agree it would have looked pretty out of place in a blue cheaper looking case! However I have other graded coins from other of the big 4 companies at a 10:1 ratio, NGC is by far the vast majority of my graded coins, and my go to grading company and definitely my #1 preference, however I do have ungraded coins my family brought back from several wars and love them more than any graded or gold coin out there! I always look for NGC graded coins but if I can't afford it due to inflated price or even find what I want to add at all,  I will add to my collection by any means necessary, you can believe that! Here is my point, I'm a numismatic enthusiast, collector, and hoarder. I love all coins graded or ungraded, gold or not, but I will if possible always buy or have them NGC graded first and foremost! Like this junk right here! Lol!! I wish they were a higher grade, and think they are a little under graded, but nice coins in any case, no pun intended, I don't mean just any slab! Also I think NGC's special labels are classier as well and appear less cheap! Just my thoughts and here are a couple of my NGC coins! Capone1929

 

[Capone1929]

13 minutes ago, Capone1929 said:

Well really the first NGC coin I bought was and is a gold coin, that is in the "gold" NGC case, I agree it would have looked pretty out of place in a blue case! However I have other graded from other companies at a 10:1 ratio, NGC is by far the vast majority of my graded coins, and I have ungraded coins, I always look for NGC graded but if I can't afford it due to inflated price or even find it at all,  I will add to my collection by any means necessary, you can believe that! Here is my point, I'm a numismatic enthusiast, collector, and, hoarder. I love all coins graded or ungraded, gold or not, but I will if possible I will always buy NGC first and foremost! Like this junk right here! Lol!! I wish it was a higher grade think it little under graded, but nice coin in any case, no pun intended, I don't mean any slab! Capone1929

 

 

[LINCOLNMAN]

Capone, I just had NGC grade a 1937 Australian crown that my dad brought back when he served in the Pacific. I did it to help preserve it in the family. Of course a Capital holder would have done as well or better, but it fits in nicely with my other slabs. 

[Six Mile Rick]

All my coins get sent to NGC as I prefer their grading standards over all the rest.

With 6 submissions lined up to go in I now have almost 1400 NGC  slabs in my little collection stash.

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/PublicUserHome.aspx?PeopleID=64396

[LINCOLNMAN]

2 hours ago, Six Mile Rick said:

All my coins get sent to NGC as I prefer their grading standards over all the rest.

With 6 submissions lined up to go in I now have almost 1400 NGC  slabs in my little collection stash.

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/PublicUserHome.aspx?PeopleID=64396

That's quite the stash. 

[Dr. Gary L. Borkan]

You all have made some valid points.  For myself when PCGS first came into the market place I was all on board.  Finally an unbiased, third party, dependable grading system.  I dove in and seldom looked back to raw coins. (Other than proof and mint sets). My first NGC coin was a 64 Dime, a sample they sent me in a free promotion to display their holder just prior to their official launch of grading.  I immediately felt the holder was more substantial and although the coins edge was not displayed, which at the time was a feature not totally lacking in the PCGS holders, (of course since corrected), to me the internal holder added something the PCGS was missing.

I have been of the opinion that both PCGS and NGC are very close in grading standards and through the years that feeling has grown.   If I have a choice I prefer NGC, but I am a eye appeal collector.  If any specific coin has the right stuff, and the price is fair I will be happy with either, and do not feel a premium is warranted for either.  I do not buy many of the the other two competitors coins as I am uncertain of the equivalency of their grading standards. But that is not based on any quantitative evidence, rather just a lack of comfort with them.

[Six Mile Rick]

On 7/14/2018 at 9:23 AM, LINCOLNMAN said:

That's quite the stash. 

Thanks Lincolnman.

I sold my Morgan collection 10 years ago and got into the modern U S collection. The stock market crash of 2008 reduced my income but my love of the coin collecting hobby grew stronger as I plundered into the modern sets and submitted a few series. Surprisingly I soon found out that many top pop modern coins I made in NGC slabs actually sold for more than my Morgan coins sold for. I like the clear view NGC slab so all my submissions are NGC for my sets as well as those sets for others that I help out with finding the missing pieces. It's great when I send in a series submission to help out another collector and get a few coins for my  set as well as for the collectors set that I am helping out!!

Happy Coin Collecting

[rrantique]

[Jade Collection]

I'm now mostly a world coin collector and I see so much more coins in NGC slabs that its easy for me to acquire certain coins from a certain country