questions - 20 Francs French Rooster 1906 1 1

[mele]

Hello guys, 

I have a couple of newbie questions regarding my 20 Francs French Rooster 1906 but I guess it relevant to any coin.

*please find pictures of my coin in the end of the post

A. I noticed there are different grades to a coin quality - how do I determinate what is my coin's grade?

B. I have checked different website and resources for the coin's value and each one of them showed different value (from $250 to $2000). How can I tell what is the expected coin's value?

Thanks

[physics-fan3.14]

Welcome to the Forums! 

The value of a coin is often highly dependent on teh grade - if you figure out the grade, you can figure out the value. The Rooster you posted is often traded for its gold content, so its value (unless in extremely high grade) will usually be based on the current spot price of gold. 

As for learning to grade.... that is a bit lengthier of a question. The grade of a coin is based on it's strike, luster, eye appeal, and contact marks. (If the coin has more marks, or if it is dull, or if it is unattractive, the value will be lower, and the grade will be lower). Your pictures are a bit out of focus, but I would estimate your coin is MS-64 or MS-65. This is an attractive coin. 

If you are truly interested in learning how to grade, I wrote a book about the subject: https://smile.amazon.com/Art-Science-Grading-Coins/dp/1492356107/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502463169&sr=8-1&keywords=art+and+science+grading+coins

[Henri Charriere]

This is a most regrettable, cringe-worthy question:  I have something; what is it worth?  The truth is only a third-party grader is qualified to make that determination (called a "certification" as opposed to "authentication") today, particularly in the Mint State range of 60 to 70.  Fortunately, for you, the coin's gold "melt value" has risen considerably since the date of your post.

[VKurtB]

No, not a third-party grader. He can only influence the range of negotiations. Only a buyer and seller coming to an agreement can determine what anything is worth.

[Henri Charriere]

Ebay and the larger, well-known auctions houses are giant juggernauts which for the most part eschew discussion and negotiation.  Two of the more notable responses I have received, both from highly regarded, long-time establishments are a curt reference to a coin's "Fair Market Value," and a gleefully snarky: "How badly do you want it?" (Both were evoked through exceedingly polite, well-reasoned texting on my part.)

While I cannot argue with VKurtBs premise, I cannot help but recall that sequence in the movie Trading Places where Dan Ackroyd, down on his luck, is compelled to enumerate the various attributes of his "sculptured" $6,953 roche foucault wristwatch, functional to a depth of "three atmospheres," when the proprietor of a pawnshop cooly responds with, "Here in Philadelphia [your watch] is worth fifty bucks," effectively ending all negotiation.

Last year when I called a well-regarded Florida dealer to complain that the MS66 Rooster he had sold me had a distinct thumb print on its reverse prompting me to examine it more closely with a 30X glass, I was told, "you should be using 7 magnification!" When I persisted, he offered to take it back, but I demurred as it was not he who had graded the coin but one of the TPGs. Would that same coin have been graded MS67 minus the 'print?  Could I have used the "defect" as a bargaining chip [as VKurtB undoubtedly would have done]? Undoubtedly.

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

No, not a third-party grader. He can only influence the range of negotiations. Only a buyer and seller coming to an agreement can determine what anything is worth.

 

 

[VKurtB]

29 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Ebay and the larger, well-known auctions houses are giant juggernauts which for the most part eschew discussion and negotiation.  Two of the more notable responses I have received, both from highly regarded, long-time establishments are a curt reference to a coin's "Fair Market Value," and a gleefully snarky: "How badly do you want it?" (Both were evoked through exceedingly polite, well-reasoned texting on my part.)

While I cannot argue with VKurtBs premise, I cannot help but recall that sequence in the movie Trading Places where Dan Ackroyd, down on his luck, is compelled to enumerate the various attributes of his "sculptured" $6,953 roche foucault wristwatch, functional to a depth of "three atmospheres," when the proprietor of a pawnshop cooly responds with, "Here in Philadelphia [your watch] is worth fifty bucks," effectively ending all negotiation.

Last year when I called a well-regarded Florida dealer to complain that the MS66 Rooster he had sold me had a distinct thumb print on its reverse prompting me to examine it more closely with a 30X glass, I was told, "you should be using 7 magnification!" When I persisted, he offered to take it back, but I demurred as it was not he who had graded the coin but one of the TPGs. Would that same coin have been graded MS67 minus the 'print?  Could I have used the "defect" as a bargaining chip [as VKurtB undoubtedly would have done]? Undoubtedly.

 

 

He was right about magnification. Take a grading course or two. The range used is 5x-7x. NOBODY goes to 30x except rank amateurs who naively believe more is always better. Also, watch an episode or two of "Pawn Stars". The negotiation pattern is nearly always the same. He who has the fewest options always loses.

Edited July 14, 2020 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

You wouldn't understand. I am a collector; not an investor. A connoisseur of French 20-franc or coq Marianne. My 30X loupe was a gift from a jeweler I worked for at a Diamond District (NYC) storefront in 1971. I have a very handy, totally useless 6X glass which my wife now uses to read the daily paper.  The fact that a mere rank amateur -- your professional diagnosis I am honored to accept -- managed to compile the # 1 ranked Rooster Roster on the West Coast will hopefully provide the needed motivation to inspire the handful of serious contenders out there to complete their respective collections to the best of their ability.  I appreciate your input!

 

[VKurtB]

30x is fine for jewels, not for coins.  No grader, repeat NO GRADER, has ever used a 30x. Full stop.

[VKurtB]

Quintus, 

You have revealed you do not understand what grading companies do, or how their people do what they do. Congratulations on putting together a short set of high quality Roosters. That doesn’t mean you know anything about anything. You need some ANA educational programs.

 

Do you even know what goes on inside a grading service?

Edited July 15, 2020 by VKurtB

[Johnny Reed Collection]

What goes on in the grading room stays in the grading room🕺

[Henri Charriere]

Short set?  Ha! Ha! Ha!  I have two complete sets: one PCGS and a hybrid comprised of superseded PCGS coins, seven NGC, an ANACS, and five or six raw uncertified Mint State gems.  Upgrading is ongoing.  I learned the actual grading process inadvertently when I submitted two specimens for cross-grading, learned that both passed muster as MS66s and immediately received an overture from a company stating they had two coins which would fill the voids in one collection quite handsomely as they were the precise dates I had submitted.  When I wrote Customer Service for an assurance this was an incredible coincidence and not my coins, I received a doctoral-like dissertation on the entire process meticulously adhered to in their hermetically-sealed assembly-line of consultations.  The "short set" you refer to lacks one coin, matching the other seven in grade, leaving me with a Hobson's choice familiar to all Rooster collectors: squandering additional funds on a coin with the appropriate dress-slab; engaging in further mass cross-grading which is, at base, a totally unnecessary, superfluous, technical expenditure of funds -- or waiting for NGC to accept world "gold" coinage certified by other TPGs, as it is expected to do in due course, a long overdue, but economically wise move that should have been undertaken in the last millennium.  One final thought: there is a difference between grabbing a bite to eat, and dining. If I were to secure Dino the Dinosaur's signed endorsement of the use of my sentimental, high-powered, half- century old loupe (in lieu of a microscope) would you be willing to let that matter lie or would you rather risk an abdominal aorta aneurism continuing to harp on a relatively minor matter akin to whether I should remove my hat when entering an elevator occupied by women or wearing pegged vs. fully-cuffed trousers?  Grading, ideally, appears to be nothing more than Grade Point Average -- a consensus reached after a meeting of the minds.