is CAC overrated?

[Afterword]

Without a focused close up of the area in question, it is impossible to form a credible opinion. This leaves only a guess, and, as both PCGS and CAC had the advantage of examining the coin in hand and with magnifying devices at their disposal, my guess would be that it is most likely not graffiti. 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

2 hours ago, coinman_23885 said:

My understanding is that a "C" quality coin is low end but appropriately graded for the grade. 

Dude. If it doesn't qualify for a CAC sticker, it is literally the worst overgraded coin in the history of collecting. Any coin that doesn't get the magical CAC green bean should be melted down and destroyed, and the previous owner should be cursed for having inflicted its maleficent existence upon the verdant world. All CAC be praised for the salvation of numismatics! All Hail the CAC! All Hail the CAC! 

[jkrk1]

Cac helps me.

The non Cac coins are devalued to a price that gives me an opportunity to purchase such coins.

 

I am a gold collector so if the non cac coins are low grade for their label  I am more than willing to pay the low grade price. 

 

If I can buy $20 Lib's/Sts  close to melt I'm happy.

 

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

2 hours ago, Afterword said:

Without a focused close up of the area in question, it is impossible to form a credible opinion. This leaves only a guess, and, as both PCGS and CAC had the advantage of examining the coin in hand and with magnifying devices at their disposal, my guess would be that it is most likely not graffiti. 

 

I saw this coin in person with a 10 power glass at a coin show. I know what I saw, and I was amazed to see this on the coin. I went to the dealer's website and found these photos. I did not post them until the coin disappeared from there. I care about other collectors. 

[Afterword]

3 hours ago, BillJones said:

I saw this coin in person with a 10 power glass at a coin show. I know what I saw, and I was amazed to see this on the coin. I went to the dealer's website and found these photos. I did not post them until the coin disappeared from there. I care about other collectors. 

While I respect your opinion, it is not enough to change my guess. As you said, "At least four professional graders looked at this coin, and they all either missed it or decided it was not bad enough to cause the coin to get a "no grade" or a lower grade." I do not believe they could have missed it. It seems more likely they just did not have the same problem with it as you do. 

[BillJones]

Sadly I've come to the conclusion that there are a significant number of collectors who are not that concerned about the grading issue. I learned my lessons in the days before there were third party graders. Sure, some dealers would sell a coin like that 1852 gold dollar as a "Choice Uncirculated" (term for MS-63 in the old days) piece, but when the same or different dealers were buying it, that "L" played a huge role in what they were willing to pay for it. You could easily lose half or more of what you paid on a coin like that. Those practices were one of the main reasons why third party grading services gained a major foothold in the U.S. coin market.

Now it seems we are coming full circle, and that lose grading is becoming once again acceptable. It will be interesting to see how long this lasts, if these examples become more prevalent.

[LINCOLNMAN]

3 hours ago, BillJones said:

Sadly I've come to the conclusion that there are a significant number of collectors who are not that concerned about the grading issue.

Loose grading makes it easier for collectors to acquire "tough" coins while kidding themselves that they have maintained minimum quality standards. I've victimized myself in this regard on a few occasions. In each case I've had to pay the piper, or expect to.

[Insider]

14 hours ago, Afterword said:

Without a focused close up of the area in question, it is impossible to form a credible opinion. This leaves only a guess, and, as both PCGS and CAC had the advantage of examining the coin in hand and with magnifying devices at their disposal, my guess would be that it is most likely not graffiti. 

 

 

Note to other posters:  If Bill says he saw the coin and it has an "L" carved into it, THE COIN HAS AN "L" CARVED INTO IT!

I have not seen the coin in-hand. Nevertheless, I can see the "L" and it is not a photographic fluke.  There are enough "clues" in the image when blown up that knowledgeable folks who know what to look for can tell it is PMD.   

 

8 hours ago, Afterword said:

While I respect your opinion, it is not enough to change my guess. As you said, "At least four professional graders looked at this coin, and they all either missed it or decided it was not bad enough to cause the coin to get a "no grade" or a lower grade." I do not believe they could have missed it. It seems more likely they just did not have the same problem with it as you do. 

Knowledgeable folks don't need TPGS or CAC to authenticate or grade for them.  Unfortunately, in my experience these folks are few and far between.  They are the top professional dealers, experienced, long-time TPGS employees, and top collectors.  The next level - are most of us fairly knowledgeable collectors and dealers who still need the "crutch."  Below us are the ignorant.  

The "for profit" TPGS were started to make money.  They were to do this by providing a service - basically, putting an acceptable "retail" value on a coin and guaranteeing it was genuine.  They established a more "protected market" for the ignorant and for those who were not as skilled or informed.  They failed.  Not completely, but enough to make room for another group - CAC- to monitor the opinion of the TPGS, make a profit, and establish a narrower value for coins.  

Grading is subjective.  If the TPGS and CAC decided that a coin with obvious graffiti is worth MS-63 money, it is.  They back up that grade with a guarantee.  That has nothing to do with PROTECTING the ignorant.  IMO, they are trying to protect the retail coin market.  Unfortunately, they CANNOT DO BOTH WELL as the example here shows.  IMO, both services made a poor decision with this coin.  Bill is correct and unlike you, his opinion is NOT A GUESS! 

    

[Afterword]

54 minutes ago, Insider said:

Bill is correct and unlike you, his opinion is NOT A GUESS! 

You are right, it is an opinion, and, based on the inadequate photo or a blurry blow up of the same, I can only offer a guess and an opinion of my own that four or more professional opinions are better than one.

 

54 minutes ago, Insider said:

If the TPGS and CAC decided that a coin with obvious graffiti is worth MS-63 money, it is.

This is a guess on your part. You are assuming they found the marks in question to be "obvious graffiti". But then you have no other recourse but to guess. 

I am not saying that Mr. Jones is not correct. I am saying the evidence he has presented to back his assertion is inadequate. A better photo might change my opinion. 

[Insider]

37 minutes ago, Afterword said:

You are right, it is an opinion, and, based on the inadequate photo or a blurry blow up of the same, I can only offer a guess and an opinion of my own that four or more professional opinions are better than one.

 

This is a guess on your part. You are assuming they found the marks in question to be "obvious graffiti". But then you have no other recourse but to guess. 

I am not saying that Mr. Jones is not correct. I am saying the evidence he has presented to back his assertion is inadequate. A better photo might change my opinion. 

Yeah, you are correct.  It's said that each of us has two things and one of them is an opinion.  Mr. Jones (who claims to have seen the coin) and I are just guessing. 

What you and I may agree on is the professionals didn't see what you don't see either.  ROTFL!  Have fun and good luck in your collecting pursuits!    

[Afterword]

18 minutes ago, Insider said:

What you and I may agree on is the professionals didn't see what you don't see either. 

I very well might - with a better photo.

[coinman_23885]

On 8/21/2017 at 7:05 AM, BillJones said:

 

Now it seems we are coming full circle, and that lose grading is becoming once again acceptable. It will be interesting to see how long this lasts, if these examples become more prevalent.

I predict there will be a large reset in the form of a crash like the one that occurred in 1989/1990.  I think a new grading paradigm will emerge out of it that tries to address the pitfalls of market grading.  I wouldn't be surprised if a new grading scale emerges.

[World Colonial]

10 hours ago, coinman_23885 said:

I predict there will be a large reset in the form of a crash like the one that occurred in 1989/1990.  I think a new grading paradigm will emerge out of it that tries to address the pitfalls of market grading.  I wouldn't be surprised if a new grading scale emerges.

Yes, I agree a substantial decline is in store for the coins which are the most overpriced for the relative merits.  However, I don't believe and see no basis to believe that a new approach to grading or a new grading scale will solve this issue which has been endlessly discussed here and on the PCGS forum.  If it occurs, it will simply be another marketing gimmick to dupe the unsuspecting and those who choose to be fooled into believing that ultimately unsustainable practices are relevant to collecting when it is actually a rationalization for financial buying.  If anything should be surprising, it isn't that a TPG "incorrectly" grades coins or CAC makes mistakes but that these practices have evolved for over 30 years to this point where the market has inflated the prices of so many undistinguished coins to such ridiculous prices.

The bigger problem never admitted in these discussions isn't the grading.  It is the inflated price level and price structure combined with the stagnant or declining market for which ever segment the particular collector is a participant.   Somehow, I have the sneaking suspicion I wouldn't be reading anywhere near the number of comments on this subject if prices were rising.  Second, the proportion of collectors who do or would care about this issue would be far fewer if the price level were (much) lower and the price structure actually reflected the relative numismatic merits of these coins.  Instead, there is the pretense that quality differences which are numismatically trivial are somehow significant combined with apparent surprise that most buyers don't really have a strong affinity for these relatively overpriced coins when they lose money.

Obviously, this issue is significant financially with many coins and no one likes to lose money.  However, with a lower price level and price differences between grades that actually make sense, the risk would be much less.

 

[schultzmeister]

I just recently looked at some gold coins  (5 dollar libs)which supposedlyare DIFFICULT to get the CAC green bean on and I tell you I WONDER HOW THEY GOT THE BEAN??  I can't post the pic at this time maybe at a later date.. MAKES BE MORE SKEPTICAL of CAC..