outrageous auction fees

[schultzmeister]

I think(heritage,stacks bowers etc) are bound to off themselves with the increase in the "JUICE" they charge.. I refuse to pay that on princple.. Don't they realize it will reduce bids?.. Great collections and ebay seem more and more realistic. Even though one must tread carefully in the bay. JMHO.

[numisport]

Another reason I only use Great Collections is the fact that Heritage requires credit card on file. Great collections will allow me to bid and pay with check or money order. Credit cards cost money causing their commission to be higher.

[Tyrock]

I agree. I just bought a seated dollar in last Sunday's auction at Heritage and had to pay the 17.5% fee.

[brg5658]

1 hour ago, Tyrock said:

I agree. I just bought a seated dollar in last Sunday's auction at Heritage and had to pay the 17.5% fee.

Well, starting August 11th, it will be 20%.  I'll be giving preference to GreatCollections now.  Heritage is a greedy, money-grubbing, price-fixing company.  Stacks and Heritage always raise the BPs in concert...I'm sure that's just coincidence?  Ha.

[Tyrock]

Actually, I didn't plan on buying anything, but when I saw that seated dollar and  thought I could buy it at a good price,  I did. I have one already, but it was a date I sold years ago and always regretted selling. I've used Great Collections and I fully support them.

[BillJones]

These guys are fast making me reconsider how I will sell my collection. The higher the buyers' fee, the lower the hammer prices. I know they are willing pay more than 100% of the hammer price to consignors to get the plum collections, but it's not improving the market for what they are selling.

Let's hope that the smaller and smarter auction firms will eat the dinosaur auction house's lunch. The time has come for market forces to alter the dinosaur's ways or force the dinosairs into extinction.

[World Colonial]

I won a lot from Stack's for the first time in last Friday's session B world coin session.  It was for a coin previously listed on a dealer site as a consignment.  I ended up paying more, about 50% more with the BP.  However, it is a coin I wanted badly and if another exists, I am unlikely to find it anytime soon.  The 17.5% BP is excessive but it was either pay up or miss out.

As for selling in the future, I'll have four realistic options if the same firms are around:  Heritage, Stacks, Dan Sedwick and Aureo & Calico (a Spanish firm).  However, I suspect that the two smaller firms don't get the same results, even though I concurrently suspect that those with whom I  compete against mostly know of both.

[schultzmeister]

This past friday I passed on a couple of items @ heritage. I havent bought from them in years cause of the juice. Almost felt bad for the consigner as they probably got hurt. Gotta wait till either FUN or ANA in Irving in the spring

[coinman_23885]

9 hours ago, BillJones said:

 

Let's hope that the smaller and smarter auction firms will eat the dinosaur auction house's lunch. The time has come for market forces to alter the dinosaur's ways or force the dinosairs into extinction.

Given Heritage's presence in art and other collectibles, I think this hobby is far more likely to go extinct before Heritage does.  Increasing fees means that consignors will net even less when the market has also shown problems with liquidity.  Add in watering down of grading guarantees and grade inflation, and there is simply too much risk for a diminishing reward IMHO.  I see it is finally time for me to exit this hobby when I find buyers at fair prices.

[World Colonial]

7 hours ago, coinman_23885 said:

Given Heritage's presence in art and other collectibles, I think this hobby is far more likely to go extinct before Heritage does.  Increasing fees means that consignors will net even less when the market has also shown problems with liquidity.  

My opinion as well. 

I can see Heritage's older primary competitors going out of business long before they do, due to inability to source enough desirable consignments and lack of scale.  This is apparently what happened to Superior Galleries.  I received an email from them one day that they were "temporarily" suspending their auctions.

[Afterword]

Heritage will become more and more reliant on high-end coins for its survival, but it will survive for some time to come. 

It will be interesting to see if Great Collections uses this as an excuse to bump up their buyer's premium. 

[Conder101]

On 8/8/2017 at 0:08 PM, schultzmeister said:

I think(heritage,stacks bowers etc) are bound to off themselves with the increase in the "JUICE" they charge.. I refuse to pay that on princple.. Don't they realize it will reduce bids?..

Yep and everyone has been saying that since they first started charging Buyers fees.  They were 5% aback then and now they are all the way up to 20%.  Must be nice to have so many people reducing their bids that you can now buy coins for less than you could 40 years ago.

 

Everyone always say "I'll just reduce my bids."  Yep, and someone else will get the coin until you are willing to pay a higher price for it.

[coinman1794]

On 8/8/2017 at 3:54 PM, BillJones said:

These guys are fast making me reconsider how I will sell my collection. The higher the buyers' fee, the lower the hammer prices. I know they are willing pay more than 100% of the hammer price to consignors to get the plum collections, but it's not improving the market for what they are selling.

Let's hope that the smaller and smarter auction firms will eat the dinosaur auction house's lunch. The time has come for market forces to alter the dinosaur's ways or force the dinosairs into extinction.

I've seen nowhere near the caliber of fabulous collections on GC, so this certainly has not happened at 17.5% buyers premium. Time will tell if 20% will be the breaking point.

[coinman1794]

On 8/8/2017 at 1:28 PM, Tyrock said:

I agree. I just bought a seated dollar in last Sunday's auction at Heritage and had to pay the 17.5% fee.

It is often best to consider the buyers premium as part of the price. Personally, I don't even pay attention to the actual "bid."

[ldhair]

I had plans to use Heritage when the time came to sell. I'm now having second thoughts. 20% is just too much to ask. 

[coinman_23885]

1 hour ago, ldhair said:

I had plans to use Heritage when the time came to sell. I'm now having second thoughts. 20% is just too much to ask. 

Unless you are a very big fish, there is a seller's fee of 5% plus a "buyer's" fee of 20% so it is actually 25%.  If there is any profit left, you'll probably end up paying 28% of any profits for the inflated capital gains tax for luxury items.  It is looking more and more like this hobby is a black hole and almost impossible to break even or make even a small profit for the average collector/coin collection (multimillionaires and ultrararities excluded).

I guess P.T. Barnum was right and collectors are merely "suckers" at the mercy of the grading services and auction houses.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

My opinion is that when collecting merged with investing, creating the collectorvestor, the growth of auction houses and condition experts (TPG) was assured. The collecting venue does not matter...art, autos, comics, numismatics. We are human. We want to increase our economic position.  The purist collector (not concerned with the economic aspect at all), is a very very rare individual.

[World Colonial]

39 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

My opinion is that when collecting merged with investing, creating the collectorvestor, the growth of auction houses and condition experts (TPG) was assured. The collecting venue does not matter...art, autos, comics, numismatics. We are human. We want to increase our economic position.  The purist collector (not concerned with the economic aspect at all), is a very very rare individual.

Correct, every single one of the collectible fields you listed have been financialized.  Some more and some less.

As to your last statement on the purist collector, I don't see it as all or nothing.  I see it as a combination of the financial outlay and the substance of what is being bought for the amount paid.  It's subjective but it should be self-evident that in today's US collecting as described on this forum and PCGS, it is substantially if not predominantly financial buying and not actual collecting.

This matters because in markets where prices are flat or falling for long periods, many buyers dump their holdings and disappear, with some or many never to return,  I have seen this first hand with the South African "collectors" I know.  There was a bubble in this market which ended around YE 2011 and since then, many prices have collapsed.  This makes it self evident that most of these buyers weren't real collectors at all.

In the US, I believe interest in collecting is much greater but still see no reason to believe that the price structure of today and the recent past will persist with extended price weakness.

[Afterword]

Heritage is a place to view and admire coins most of us will never be able to afford. They have that level of collecting locked up. Their vulnerability exists with the coins most collectors can afford and this recent premium hike makes them even more vulnerable at this level of collecting - especially, if Great Collections resists raising their premiums in lockstep with Heritage.

Not that I know what I am talking about, or ever did or ever will or ever plan to.

[Afterword]

2 hours ago, World Colonial said:

The purist collector (not concerned with the economic aspect at all), is a very very rare individual.

I would add a couple more verys.

Good to see you are back, Mr.Mcknowitall!

[e1cnr]

The new normal. eBay, for most sellers is nothing more than free or slave labor less than minimum wage (but very flexible).

[coinman_23885]

9 hours ago, Afterword said:

Heritage is a place to view and admire coins most of us will never be able to afford. They have that level of collecting locked up. Their vulnerability exists with the coins most collectors can afford and this recent premium hike makes them even more vulnerable at this level of collecting - especially, if Great Collections resists raising their premiums in lockstep with Heritage.

Not that I know what I am talking about, or ever did or ever will or ever plan to.

I think GC will eventually follow suit.  There is a huge difference from what the larger auction houses are charging on $1k+ coins, so it could significantly increase its fees and GC could still undercut Stacks- Bowers and Heritage by a decent amount.  I hope I am wrong.

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, e1cnr said:

The new normal. eBay, for most sellers is nothing more than free or slave labor less than minimum wage (but very flexible).

From my limited review, eBay is the best indication that the liquidity of most coins is poor or very poor.  I haven't sold any coin on eBay in a long time but I almost never see any real auctions.  I suspect this is because sellers know that using "reasonable" starting bids is likely to result in a fire sale price.

[Afterword]

13 hours ago, coinman_23885 said:

I think GC will eventually follow suit.  There is a huge difference from what the larger auction houses are charging on $1k+ coins, so it could significantly increase its fees and GC could still undercut Stacks- Bowers and Heritage by a decent amount.  I hope I am wrong.

I am quite certain they will, eventually. They could raise their buyer's premium five percentage points and still maintain their existing advantage, or they could refrain from doing so and strengthen their advantage considerably.

If no financial necessity to raise their buyer's premium exists, I would think the latter would be the wiser choice. 

 

[Conder101]

On 8/10/2017 at 0:01 PM, Afterword said:

On 8/10/2017 at 9:09 AM, World Colonial said:

The purist collector (not concerned with the economic aspect at all), is a very very rare individual.

I would add a couple more verys.

It's good to be rare.

[kidrootbeer]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 1:28 PM, Tyrock said:

I agree. I just bought a seated dollar in last Sunday's auction at Heritage and had to pay the 17.5% fee.

20% now

[kidrootbeer]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:44 AM, coinman_23885 said:

Unless you are a very big fish, there is a seller's fee of 5% plus a "buyer's" fee of 20% so it is actually 25%.  If there is any profit left, you'll probably end up paying 28% of any profits for the inflated capital gains tax for luxury items.  It is looking more and more like this hobby is a black hole and almost impossible to break even or make even a small profit for the average collector/coin collection (multimillionaires and ultrararities excluded).

I guess P.T. Barnum was right and collectors are merely "suckers" at the mercy of the grading services and auction houses.

well, if you ask nicely and have the coins, you can negotiate from 0 to -5% of Hammer selling them through auction

[BillJones]

I used to look at the Heritage auctions as a primary bidding source. No more. I look at what they have, but EVERY BID will now be reduced by a factor of 120%. I will not be doing any more stretching.

There are two sides to the auction equation, the consignors and the bidders, and the auction houses are forgetting the bidders.

[kidrootbeer]

GC, as an Internet-Only auction house (their suite is in an Industrial-looking building), outlays far less cash than do their behemoth brethren...

[kidrootbeer]

I remember when the Big 3 auction houses were floating the idea of adding a Buying Premium, "like they do in Europe". We all had the same Anti-fee arguments then