ANACS old holder downgrade

[Nutmeg Coin]

I submitted this 1895-O Morgan dollar certified as XF45.    NGC just graded it as VF30, did Anacs get it wrong?  NGC does not do Anacs crossovers so I sent it in raw.

[physics-fan3.14]

EF-45 is extremely optimistic for that coin. I can't tell what the luster looks like from those pictures, but there must be strong traces of luster in the protected areas for it to get 45. There needs to be traces of luster for a 40. 

Coupled with the complete lack of evidence of luster in those pics, and the amount of wear I see on the cheek, I think VF-35 feels like a fair grade. 

[MarkFeld]

I vote 40.

[coinman_23885]

I like it as a VF35.

[Nutmeg Coin]

On any given coin you can check other certified coins, same mm, and grade range.  On this one if you look at 40 or so examples there are plenty of xf examples that are similar.  When the small holder coins were graded they were following strict ANA standards which strikes me as puzzling with the NGC result.  

[Conder101]

Did they get it wrong, or did they just have a different opinion.  Grading is subjective.  Unless the opinions are WAY off there really isn't a "right and wrong".

[Nutmeg Coin]

There clearly is some subjectivity. But EF45 to VF30?? Also cac is having an effect, probably more with NGC than PCGS.  A dealer friend told me about a not fully struck 1921 Peace dollar bought by another dealer that went MS66 at the recent Fun show.  PCGS sees those a little differently on grade.  

[bstrauss3]

That's also an old ANACS holder from the Amos Press days, quite a while after ANA sold the business.

ANACS of that vintage discovered market grading, so ... you pays your money and takes your chances of today's market grading vs. yesterday's market grading.

[BillJones]

Yes, I think that ANACS gave it about 10 points more than it deserved. Still these coins are tough to grade because the New Orleans Mint did a lousy job when it made them. This pieces appears to be little nicer than average when it comes to strike, but the eye appeal is lacking. Still, I've almost never seen an 1895-O dollar that had eye appeal.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Here is another one, same grade earlier version:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1895-O-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-OLD-ANACS-EF-45-BETTER-DATE-/152615558044?hash=item2388989b9c:g:n7sAAOSwve5XNejm

[BillJones]

The second 1895-O looks like it's been cleaned, but with the luster is so poor on these coins, sometimes it's hard to tell what has been cleaned and what is just ugly.

When I was a dealer I saw an 1895-O dollar that was almost black as coal, graded MS-60 and priced at almost $8,000! Needless to say, you needn't write an invoice for me for that piece!

[Insider]

IMO, the coin a tiny bit of luster and all the details present to grade XF.  From there, it's a matter of opinion 40 or 45.  40 would have been OK.   The commercial grading done at TPGS is said to put a "value" on a coin.  No dealer in the country younger than sixty would sell that coin as a VF!   

[LINCOLNMAN]

 "No dealer in the country younger than sixty would sell that coin as a VF! "

As a collector over 60, I wouldn't want either coin illustrated as an XF, regardless of wear or TPG opinion. JMO based solely on the photos. No offense to the owners as photos may not do the coins justice. Happens a lot with original coins. I'm all about (my) eye appeal at all grade levels.

[Nutmeg Coin]

OK, here are some PCGS and NGC examples:  https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-xf40-pcgs-pcgs-population-693-3735-ngc-census-465-3245-cdn-425-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc-pcgs-xf/a/131711-24138.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-xf40-ngc-ngc-census-442-3176-pcgs-population-630-3390-mintage-450-000-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem/a/131604-27843.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-xf40-pcgs-pcgs-population-693-3735-ngc-census-465-3245-cdn-425-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc-pcgs-xf/a/131711-24138.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-vf35-pcgs-pcgs-population-408-4473-ngc-census-204-3708-mintage-450-000/a/131719-23727.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-vf35-ngc-ex-ana-money-museum-ngc-census-203-3705-pcgs-population-396-4379-mintage-450-000/a/131708-25360.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-vf30-ngc-ngc-census-240-3801-pcgs-population-338-4407-mintage-450-000-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem/a/131611-25364.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

[numisport]

If CAC would Gold Sticker then NGC might follow with EF 40. It's not worth it is it ? Many circulated 95-O dollars exist.

[physics-fan3.14]

8 hours ago, Nutmeg Coin said:

Here is another one, same grade earlier version:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1895-O-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-OLD-ANACS-EF-45-BETTER-DATE-/152615558044?hash=item2388989b9c:g:n7sAAOSwve5XNejm

This coin has considerably less wear than yours. They are equally poor photographs, so there is no indication of luster - but if you were to put this coin and yours side by side, the second one clearly deserves a higher grade based solely on wear. 

3 hours ago, Nutmeg Coin said:

OK, here are some PCGS and NGC examples:  https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-xf40-pcgs-pcgs-population-693-3735-ngc-census-465-3245-cdn-425-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc-pcgs-xf/a/131711-24138.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-xf40-ngc-ngc-census-442-3176-pcgs-population-630-3390-mintage-450-000-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem/a/131604-27843.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-xf40-pcgs-pcgs-population-693-3735-ngc-census-465-3245-cdn-425-whsle-bid-for-problem-free-ngc-pcgs-xf/a/131711-24138.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-vf35-pcgs-pcgs-population-408-4473-ngc-census-204-3708-mintage-450-000/a/131719-23727.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-vf35-ngc-ex-ana-money-museum-ngc-census-203-3705-pcgs-population-396-4379-mintage-450-000/a/131708-25360.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1895-o-1-vf30-ngc-ngc-census-240-3801-pcgs-population-338-4407-mintage-450-000-numismedia-wsl-price-for-problem/a/131611-25364.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

This list absolutely confirms your OP coin as a VF-35.

The XF-40 examples you post have demonstrably less wear - especially on the cheek. You cheek shows considerable flattening not present on the XF-40 examples. 

The PCGS VF-35 is a technical XF-40 which has been net graded down for cleaning. This is a poor comparison example.

The NGC VF-35, however, is a very close match for your OP coin. 

The VF-30 you posted is probably net graded down for some cleaning not evident in your pictures, but is probably more accurately a VF-35. 

 

In summary, you are making a strong case that your coin is accurately graded at VF-35. 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Actually graded VF30.  I had another better date mm Morgan go from VF35 (NGC) to VF30.  I wasn't trying to make a case.  I just went on coin facts and tried to find readily retrievable HA results in the range.

[physics-fan3.14]

4 minutes ago, Nutmeg Coin said:

Actually graded VF30.  I had another better date mm Morgan go from VF35 (NGC) to VF30.  I wasn't trying to make a case.  I just went on coin facts and tried to find readily retrievable HA results in the range.

I see your OP is edited. Did you originally post it as 35, or am I imagining things? 30 seems low - 35 seems correct. 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I thought it was a VF35 until I got the result again after it shipped, etc..   The biggest downgrade I have had.  

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

Less than $100 separates VF30 from XF40.  Send it to CAC for a gold sticker, hype it as super undergraded, and ask XF+ money for it.

[coinman1794]

I would put this at VF35, or maybe 40 if it has a lot of luster.

[david3142]

Yours looks like a 40 to me although 35 seems reasonable. I have two in VF30 (but I feel one is a 35). Yours has less wear than both of mine. 

[physics-fan3.14]

9 hours ago, coinman1794 said:

I would put this at VF35, or maybe 40 if it has a lot of luster.

None of the pictures shown here show any luster. There isn't really any in the NGC cert-lookup pics either: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4463607-004/30/ 

11 hours ago, coinman_23885 said:

Send it to CAC for a gold sticker, hype it as super undergraded, and ask XF+ money for it.

You're joking, right? We really need a sarcasm font.... 

[coinman_23885]

4 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

You're joking, right? We really need a sarcasm font.... 

I was being serious.  Mark Feld has opined that the coin is XF40, and I would trust his grading judgment on these more than my own generally and even more so than usual because I rarely encounter circulated Morgan Dollars.   It seems that a good number of gold CAC stickered coins are marketed at a premium over the coin's true grade (not TPG grade) because of perceived "collectability" of the sticker.   In this case, I would submit to CAC.  If it comes back with a gold sticker, I would throw it up at XF45 or slightly below with a best offer feature.

[coinman1794]

One thing many people forget to do is grade the rims. A true XF will have sharply defined, well-rounded rims (assuming the coin is evenly struck), and the VF 35 and 30 grades will start to show flatness and hints of weakness, as seen here.

[A.Phillips]

Wow, that's huge drop from 45 to 30. I usually expected that old or new ANACS's grading is -\+ 1-2 points from the original grade. I did submitted a several of old ANACS (cracked it out) to NGC:

1878-S 20 cents piece - ANACS VF20 to NGC F15

1923-S Peace Dollar - ANACS MS61 to NGC MS63

1893-O Morgan Dollar - ANACS AU50 to NGC XF45

 

However, from ANACS XF45 to NGC VF30 is unusal. I would agree with some of above comments: VF35..

[Raisethis2]

That grade seems very harsh for the details I see. That's why I don't send dollars to NGC any more though.  They seem to hate Morgans, OK, I can take a hint. 

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

The coin is at cac, so I will let others here know if they like it.  One thing I should have mentioned, is I did a non-acidic acetone dip, so maybe dirt, etc. came off?

[Nutmeg Coin]

CAC stickered the coin.  It would have had to be the next grade higher (decisively) to get a gold sticker.....

[schultzmeister]

35 seems fair  ANACS ws a bit optimistic on that one.. a Bit dark might have resulted in the 30 from our host