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Walter Breen's Numismatic Legacy
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273 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, t-arc said:

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          1936       USA     5 cents

             matte proof  PR-60

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Is this what the grading service is saying?

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55 minutes ago, WoodenJefferson said:

Is this what the grading service is saying?

NO THEY ONLY GOT IT FRIDAY!  SORRY I DID NOT CLARIFY THAT.  IT WAS MY NOTATION.

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2 hours ago, RWB said:

Proof coins were struck once using a high pressure medal press. This imparted the full design and other characteristics attributed to US Mint proof coins. (A very few exceptions exist from 1850 forward, but barely enough to count on the fingers of one hand.)

Cool... the things you learn. Thanks. Had a 74WA Dime, reflective AU-ish, I knew was a Proof Strike by the reeding. The Board argument about that devolved into questioning some of the posters' mothers' heritages...

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does anyone in this thread have an opinion on the 1916 nickel that went along with the 1936  (got an email from pcgs saying both coins had been received last night)

 

 

 

$_57.1916.matte.proof.obv (2).jpg

s-l500.1916.unc.rev.jpg

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The coin doesn't look original to me, typical of Great southern's style, you wonder what they are hiding with their large volume.  Same thing with "Centsles".  Poor photography.

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1 hour ago, Nutmeg Coin said:

The coin doesn't look original to me, typical of Great southern's style, you wonder what they are hiding with their large volume.  Same thing with "Centsles".  Poor photography.

As far as I am concerned Way Down South, i.e. “Great Southern” is a great place to shop.  And when buying a raw coin from them, like anywhere else, you just have to be careful.  

Their pictures are sometimes taken at multiple angles giving the coin more depth than it really has.  But overall their pictures a pretty good, based upon my experience.

(I think this coin shows rub on the hip and will come back “58” for that reason.)

Edited by t-arc
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3 hours ago, t-arc said:

does anyone in this thread have an opinion on the 1916 nickel that went along with the 1936  (got an email from pcgs saying both coins had been received last night)

 

 

 

 

I think OP had hoped it was a Poof Strike, because of the inherent hub defect seen on the reverse

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3 hours ago, Insider said:

So Roger, EVERYTHING written/taught in the past about two strikes for proofs is incorrect? 

For the 1850- approx 1970 period, yes.

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Got a book yesterday by Walter Breen entitled “The minting process, how coins are made and misnamed” published in 1970.  This is a very rare book, one sold for over $150 a few years ago

and an antique book shop in Pennsylvania had the copy I got priced at $165.  I really wanted to read this book as I had been told by others that it was a good read, but was not willing to pay over $160 for it!

All of a sudden the book seller reduced the price on his copy from $165 to $35, so at that point I bought it.  It is over 150 pages and reads well, so looks like I got a good deal here.  Has any one else ever seen

this book?  I did a search for this book and only found one other copy available, at a library in Maryland.

22956649_1.jpg

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2 hours ago, allmine said:

that PBS video (featuring Fred W!) shows us how the Gold & Platinum Proof coins are almost liquid after two strikes...

What do you meant by "almost liquid"? 

Could you post a link to the video? 

Roger states 1850-1970, so gold and platinum proofs would fall outside that range. 

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I've been trying to find it... Fred's prominent in it

yes, outside the date range, but it doesn't say anything about the Proof striking except "two strikes", not like it was a 'new' thing

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18 hours ago, allmine said:

that PBS video (featuring Fred W!) shows us how the Gold & Platinum Proof coins are almost liquid after two strikes...

That was referring to coins AFTER the 1970's. (And the surfaces may take on a liquid appearance but the coins themselves NEVER even come close to becoming "liquid".

 

13 hours ago, allmine said:

but it doesn't say anything about the Proof striking except "two strikes", not like it was a 'new' thing

That is because it has been common belief since at least the 1960's that proofs were struck twice.  In even older works the two strikes mantra was used.  But those were the result of information being pasted on and repeated without verification from the original documents.  Roger has been doing that research in the original mint documents and it turns out that proofs were only struck once but at much greater pressure.  (Just because somethng has been repeated for years doesn't make it true.  And when the evidence arises that show it isn't true, its repetition needs to stop.)

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"That was referring to coins AFTER the 1970's. (And the surfaces may take on a liquid appearance but the coins themselves NEVER even come close to becoming "liquid"."
ya gotta see the video

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54 minutes ago, allmine said:

this isn't that video...

Well of course not, but it looks like there is different minting processes for different metals, this one happens to be proof platinum. The proof silver eagles are struck twice with 2 blows, this I know. 

...and the part about the proof coinage turning 'liquid' is horse manure. For a millisecond the surface of a planchet might flow like a liquid but it instantly solidifies. The word 'liquid' in this context is an adjective to describe the devices floating on what appears to be a 'liquid' surface, the mirrored surface.

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3 hours ago, WoodenJefferson said:

...and the part about the proof coinage turning 'liquid' is horse manure. For a millisecond the surface of a planchet might flow like a liquid but it instantly solidifies. The word 'liquid' in this context is an adjective to describe the devices floating on what appears to be a 'liquid' surface, the mirrored surface.

what can I tell you; it's in the video. Ask Fred.

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Just found this thread, dated, but lots of good information. (thumbsu

Not too familiar with most of the detailed work done by Breen -- more of my readings are on Saints and Liberty's -- so I am more likely to read stuff by Akers, Bowers, Roger, etc.

I will say that the "fill in the blank" approach to missing research is something we see in many fields, not just numismatics.  Clearly labeling such data or writings as opinion or conjecture is definitely the most honest way to include it.  Integrity is key in ANY research.

I am familiar with one example where Breen "jumped the gun" -- a supposed hoard of 40 or so Saints for a very rare year/mint found in England.  I can't remember the Saint, though I am sure I have it in my research files.  Whether Breen initiated or helped spread the rumour I can not say.  Whether he said it once or five times or twenty times, I can not say.  If he was told it by someone reliable and ASSUMED it to be true, I can not say.  

So while the information on a long-lost hoard found in England turned out to be false, how much blame Breen should get is debatable.  Also, just talking about something is different than WRITING about it permanently -- if this was mentioned in any of his books or columns, I don't know.

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Breen lied a lot in his latter concoctions -- I won;t call it "work." He also had far more limited knowledge and research data than claimed, and routinely invented stories to enhance his ego, and thereby screw the hobby (and business).

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On 1/5/2022 at 4:37 PM, RWB said:

Breen lied a lot in his latter concoctions -- I won;t call it "work." He also had far more limited knowledge and research data than claimed, and routinely invented stories to enhance his ego, and thereby screw the hobby (and business).

So true, Roger.  But, apparently that book on pederasty he wrote was very well researched.  I guess we know Uncle Wally's true passion and interest in life......

Edited by Mohawk
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On 1/5/2022 at 9:28 PM, Mohawk said:

So true, Roger.  But, apparently that book on pederasty he wrote was very well researched.  I guess we know Uncle Wally's true passion and interest in life......

Hmmm...never was interested in the subject so know nothing except child molesters "ought" to be put on a meat slicer front-to-back.

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On 1/5/2022 at 9:50 PM, RWB said:

Hmmm...never was interested in the subject so know nothing except child molesters "ought" to be put on a meat slicer front-to-back.

I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly Roger.  I wouldn't have even known about Uncle Wally's book if not for this CoinWeek article from 2015:

https://coinweek.com/editors-choice/confronting-breen/

Edited by Mohawk
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In all seriousness, though, it's really a shame that Breen continues to haunt the hobby with his lies and other activities.  I don't know why people still use his work for anything, being as full of blatant fabrications as it is.

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On 1/5/2022 at 4:37 PM, RWB said:

Breen lied a lot in his latter concoctions -- I won;t call it "work." He also had far more limited knowledge and research data than claimed, and routinely invented stories to enhance his ego, and thereby screw the hobby (and business).

Just curious...did you ever meet him ?

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On 1/5/2022 at 9:52 PM, Mohawk said:

I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly Roger.  I wouldn't have even known about Uncle Wally's book if not for this CoinWeek article from 2015:

https://coinweek.com/editors-choice/confronting-breen/

Excellent article.  And so damn spot on -- imagine if the conviction and trial had been 10-15 years later during the age of the internet.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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  • Member: Seasoned Veteran

People accepted Breen's writings as the gospel for years primarily because so few others were doing any research at all. There was a need for factual information in the area of federal coinage. Eric Newman did excellent research, but it was in very specialized areas. The first person to perform uniformly fact based research into federal coins was R. W. Julian, who is still contributing to the present day.

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On 1/6/2022 at 5:32 AM, DWLange said:

People accepted Breen's writings as the gospel for years primarily because so few others were doing any research at all. There was a need for factual information in the area of federal coinage. Eric Newman did excellent research, but it was in very specialized areas. The first person to perform uniformly fact based research into federal coins was R. W. Julian, who is still contributing to the present day.

David, I think most of the research -- aside from books and articles in stuff like COIN WEEK -- was in the auction catalogs themselves.

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On 1/5/2022 at 11:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Excellent article.  And so damn spot on -- imagine if the conviction and trial had been 10-15 years later during the age of the internet.

It would have been even more insane than it was.  And Breen would be known widely by the general public rather than just among we numismatists, science fiction fans and...those engaged in Breen's other activities.  He'd be reviled by a much larger number of people than he is now.

Edited by Mohawk
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