South Africa circulated, proof and pattern coins 1874 - 2000

[morganthebrave]

Covers the period of circulated, proof and pattern coinage of South Africa from 1874 - 2000

Any Questions, mintage figures or general  discussions can be held here......

[morganthebrave]

The union 1/4 d (Farthing) of Geo V and that of Geo VI are, in my opinion, very scarce to acquire - especially in higher grades and with very, very low mintage figures.

Somehow I feel these circulated Farthings are under valued compared to other Union Geo V and Geo VI circulation coins. 

[morganthebrave]

The South Africa George V Farthings are extremely low mintage figures for circulated coinage.

Geo V Farthing with a mintage of 3....really just 3!

The second lowest mintage is Geo V Farthing in 1934 with only 28 minted

and then in 1933 only 56 Geo V Farthings minted...unbelievable! 

[morganthebrave]

Many Collectors believe that the 1931 tickey (3d) of Geo V is the lowest circulated minted South Africa Union coin with 66 placed into circulation. The Farthing of 1934 (28 minted), 1933 (56 minted) and 1936 (3 minted) have lower mintage than the 1931 tickey but are not well known within the numismatic world. Farthings are bronze/ copper and the 3d is made of silver - perhaps the intrinsic value adds to its collect-ability? I know that their was more advertisement in the older years on the 1931 tickey and perhaps that then snow-balled the collect-ability of the coin. 

[Conder101]

I'm sure they could be wrong but Krause shows the 1934 farthing with a mintage of 52, the 1933 with a mintage of 76, and the 1936 with a mintage of 43.

[morganthebrave]

7 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I'm sure they could be wrong but Krause shows the 1934 farthing with a mintage of 52, the 1933 with a mintage of 76, and the 1936 with a mintage of 43.

Thanks Conder101 - The mintage above includes the proof mintage numbers sir.   re 3 circulated plus 40 proof = 43

[morganthebrave]

The George V 1931 3d (Tickey) with a mintage of 66 circulated and 62 proof.

A well sort after coin. Not easy to find one for sale and selling at great prices!

If any collector has sample pics of this great coin please post!

[Conder101]

So the farthing mintages include the proof mintages, but the three pence mintage does not include the proof mintage?

[morganthebrave]

Correct Conder101 but I say that in the line above....sadly Krause books not really that informative on South Africa coinage as they have a huge task to try print the whole world information....books that are more homely to South Africa coinage is Hern's and MTB.

[morganthebrave]

Queen Elizabeth II briefly visited South Africa back in 1995 and a set of coins minted by the South Africa mint was issued. It is estimated around 30  sets given out to dignitaries. The sets had original 2.5 crown, 1d and 1/2d pre-decimal coins but a unique gold sovereign and two crowns (one in silver and one in copper nickel). The design is of very poor quality.

1. Proof Commemorative  copper-nickel coin with diameter 38.1mm and weight 22.3gm     Obv designed by Mary Gillick  (Ref: LW 0159b)

2. Proof Commemorative  Silver coin in  .925 silver. Obv designed by Mary Gillick  (Ref: LW 0159b) with diameter 38.7mm and weight 33.8gm

3. Proof gold sovereign 22crt  gold with weight 7.988 grams.

[Zebo]

Very interesting about the sovereign - I didn't know they issued one. 

[morganthebrave]

Thanks Zebo - yes, many people did not know about them and they are indeed very, very scarce to obtain. I have been searching and have been unable to grab a set.  They are legal tender so this makes the set so much more interesting.

[morganthebrave]

1996 Mint error - gold coin struck using dies from the silver commemorative issue. Estimated about 5 minted. The dies do not have the standard 1 Oz (gold) writing on the die. 

[Zebo]

12 hours ago, morganthebrave said:

Thanks Zebo - yes, many people did not know about them and they are indeed very, very scarce to obtain. I have been searching and have been unable to grab a set.  They are legal tender so this makes the set so much more interesting.

Legal tender or medallion? I would think medallion. Very interesting history of the visits.

[morganthebrave]

Actually legal tender Zebo!

[Zebo]

2 minutes ago, morganthebrave said:

Actually legal tender Zebo!

I'll have to do a little research on these. Fancinating regarding them being legal tender. Would love to know the discussions leading up to minting them. Thanks for enlightening us.

[morganthebrave]

I fI can only get my hands on a set!...if only

[morganthebrave]

ZAR pattern coin of the Orange Free State. It is the plain shield design.  Dated 1888. 1d. Mintage is estimated at around 60. The below is graded MS66.

[morganthebrave]

1995 silver Proof mintage is 4461 and circulation mintage is 3545. What makes this issue interesting is that there are three known varieties. The 1st variety is the closed door (the door seems to be frosted over) with estimated 15 proofs and the second the closed door and window (frosted over) with estimated 30 proofs and the last variety which has a mirrored door (graded as such by NGC) and to date only 1 known which is the coin in the picture! . I suspect there will be others like it (maybe 5?!).  as time marches on.There does not seem to be any varieties on the circulated mintage  but perhaps I could be wrong. If any collector has one that is frosted etc and is mint state and not proof...please show the picture here. 

[jcriller]

1936 1/4p is quite difficult to get hold of in MS, there is one minted in 64Rb which is currently the highest graded one, which im trying to locate, i have seen one unfortunately too late,  a 1936 proof set sold in the Hills collection and i believe the 1/4p was graded MS. I must say high graded 1/4p coins is quite difficult to find especially in the original RD colour (1942 onwards)

[morganthebrave]

Hi JC....

I am of the opinion that the South Africa 1/4d is so much under-valued for Geo V. To obtain a high MS grade is exceptionally hard. I have also tried to acquire a piece for each year but not happy to settle for anything under MS grades... I would be very much happy if you did indeed get to own one of  the 1936 MS Farthings...please let me know if you do!

[World Colonial]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 6:26 AM, morganthebrave said:

The South Africa George V Farthings are extremely low mintage figures for circulated coinage.

Geo V Farthing with a mintage of 3....really just 3!

The second lowest mintage is Geo V Farthing in 1934 with only 28 minted

and then in 1933 only 56 Geo V Farthings minted...unbelievable! 

I have collected South Africa since 1998, though I don't buy them often anymore.  There is no actual evidence that 1933 and 1934 circulation strike South Africa farthings exist or for that matter, ever did exist.  The mintages you cite are recorded in Krause and all the South Africa catalogs I have seen (Kaplan, Randburg and Hern) but I have never heard or seen any evidence elsewhere that anyone owns one or ever did.

[World Colonial]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 5:36 AM, morganthebrave said:

The George V 1931 3d (Tickey) with a mintage of 66 circulated and 62 proof.

A well sort after coin. Not easy to find one for sale and selling at great prices!

If any collector has sample pics of this great coin please post!

The 1931 Union proof set is overpriced relative to other South African proof sets and for that matter many other South African coins.  Along with the 1936, it isn't that hard to buy.  The most logical explanation for its current and historical price is that South African collectors did not distinguish between using proofs and circulation strikes in their set definition.  Since circulation strike 3D, 6D, shillings, florin and half crowns are scarce to major rarities, they invariably included the proof. 

If you read the Hern catalog, what I describe is also evident with the 1949 proof only shilling.  No one needs a 1949 for a complete set of shillings unless they co-mingle proofs and circulation strikes.  It's evident this is exactly what South African collectors did in the past (and maybe still today) or else what is actually a rather common coin wouldn't sell for more than others which are scarcer.

[World Colonial]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 7:35 PM, morganthebrave said:

Queen Elizabeth II briefly visited South Africa back in 1995 and a set of coins minted by the South Africa mint was issued. It is estimated around 30  sets given out to dignitaries. The sets had original 2.5 crown, 1d and 1/2d pre-decimal coins but a unique gold sovereign and two crowns (one in silver and one in copper nickel). The design is of very poor quality.

1. Proof Commemorative  copper-nickel coin with diameter 38.1mm and weight 22.3gm     Obv designed by Mary Gillick  (Ref: LW 0159b)

2. Proof Commemorative  Silver coin in  .925 silver. Obv designed by Mary Gillick  (Ref: LW 0159b) with diameter 38.7mm and weight 33.8gm

3. Proof gold sovereign 22crt  gold with weight 7.988 grams.

I would definitely be interested in this set, but almost certainly not at the current price.

[World Colonial]

12 hours ago, morganthebrave said:

Hi JC....

I am of the opinion that the South Africa 1/4d is so much under-valued for Geo V. To obtain a high MS grade is exceptionally hard. I have also tried to acquire a piece for each year but not happy to settle for anything under MS grades... I would be very much happy if you did indeed get to own one of  the 1936 MS Farthings...please let me know if you do!

I don't believe the 1936 graded as MS are actually circulation strikes and I don't believe consensus opinion does either.  If this was not true, then the four recorded in the NGC population report would likely be worth a lot more.  My recollection is that Alex Uruzzi (whom both of you should know) stated it is not.  In at least one auction listing, Heritage described one of them as a "specimen". 

I suspect the known coins are likely proof rejects, as there is no logical reason why any mint would strike such a low number for commercial reasons.  To anticipate a potential rebuttal, the 1931 3D has a recorded mintage of 66 in my catalogs dated 1962 and later but there are two differences:

First, its evident that this coin actually did circulate assuming the coins recorded in the NGC population report are not impaired proofs.  I consider it possible that NGC incorrectly attributed one or more of the three (?) but unlikely it did so for all of them.

Second, I am aware of two mint state 1931 3D from second hand accounts.  Scott Balson previously wrote that he had seen the one in the Dr. Frank Mitchell collection and another collector I know claimed to have seen a complete 1931 mint set owned by someone in the UK which was given to their mother in 1932.

The latter is particularly interesting because my 1950 Kaplan guide doesn't provide a breakout between proofs and circulation strikes for the 3D, florin and half crown.  The 3D mintage is listed as 128.  The current data of 66 and 62 only occurs in later catalogs, the first of which I know is the 1962 Kaplan.  This potentially implies that either mint sets were also distributed as the example I gave or maybe there aren't actually any 1931 3D as circulation strikes either, just as I believe for the 1933, 1934 and 1936 farthings.

As for the scarcity of the other KGV farthing, I don't consider them scarce in better grades, not for Union coinage or KGV.  They are easily more common than every other denomination except for the gold half sovereign and most sovereigns (excluding the 1923 and 1924) which circulated much less and possibly the 3D.

Union bronze coinage in RD (many of which exist today which don't actually look RD despite the label holder) are scarce or rare since the SA Mint intentionally darkened them up to 1942, or so it states in Hern to my recollection.  I have owned several of the earlier KGVI dates in the NGC population report in the past, specifically the 1937, 1938 and 1940 penny.  I would buy them at modest premiums to RB or BN coins but nothing more.

[Zebo]

40 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

I would definitely be interested in this set, but almost certainly not at the current price.

I was wondering when you come out and comment. It is an interesting set. 

[World Colonial]

2 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I was wondering when you come out and comment. It is an interesting set. 

I wasn't aware this set even existed, as I don't recall it in my Randburg or Hern catalogs.  The Gillick QE II portrait is one of my favorite 20th century designs along with the King George V (KGV) portrait from Australia, Canada and South Africa.  There are other "made rare" low mintage South African commemoratives but I have never seen (or looked for them) for sale and to my knowledge, they sell for outsized prices versus low mintage earlier Union proof sets and given the current depressed market, the numerous scarce Union business strikes.

I own the dual dated (1953-2003) Canada gold jubilee proof set which has a mintage of 30,000.  I will also eventually buy the dual dated 1911-2011 Canada proof set with a mintage of 6000.  Both of these sets have the original designs and I'll have to settle for this cheaper substitute..

[Zebo]

Cheaper, but still very nice sets. Thanks for adding to the conversation.

[morganthebrave]

12 hours ago, World Colonial said:

I wasn't aware this set even existed, as I don't recall it in my Randburg or Hern catalogs.  The Gillick QE II portrait is one of my favorite 20th century designs along with the King George V (KGV) portrait from Australia, Canada and South Africa.  There are other "made rare" low mintage South African commemoratives but I have never seen (or looked for them) for sale and to my knowledge, they sell for outsized prices versus low mintage earlier Union proof sets and given the current depressed market, the numerous scarce Union business strikes.

I own the dual dated (1953-2003) Canada gold jubilee proof set which has a mintage of 30,000.  I will also eventually buy the dual dated 1911-2011 Canada proof set with a mintage of 6000.  Both of these sets have the original designs and I'll have to settle for this cheaper substitute..

Yes - not many know about this set. In my opinion Its really not well designed or struck.  Usually South africa Mint do make awesome coinage. In this case someone was punching this set out at the SA Mint using a hammer and chisel. 

Still, despite World Colonial saying they may be over priced you would be hard pressed in obtaining a set. I would be willing to pay the price of $3000 USD for the set should one come up for offer. I have looked for many years with no luck.

If only I was Rockefella...I would then offer more!

 

 

[morganthebrave]

13 hours ago, World Colonial said:

I don't believe the 1936 graded as MS are actually circulation strikes and I don't believe consensus opinion does either.  If this was not true, then the four recorded in the NGC population report would likely be worth a lot more.  My recollection is that Alex Uruzzi (whom both of you should know) stated it is not.  In at least one auction listing, Heritage described one of them as a "specimen". 

I suspect the known coins are likely proof rejects, as there is no logical reason why any mint would strike such a low number for commercial reasons.  To anticipate a potential rebuttal, the 1931 3D has a recorded mintage of 66 in my catalogs dated 1962 and later but there are two differences:

First, its evident that this coin actually did circulate assuming the coins recorded in the NGC population report are not impaired proofs.  I consider it possible that NGC incorrectly attributed one or more of the three (?) but unlikely it did so for all of them.

Second, I am aware of two mint state 1931 3D from second hand accounts.  Scott Balson previously wrote that he had seen the one in the Dr. Frank Mitchell collection and another collector I know claimed to have seen a complete 1931 mint set owned by someone in the UK which was given to their mother in 1932.

The latter is particularly interesting because my 1950 Kaplan guide doesn't provide a breakout between proofs and circulation strikes for the 3D, florin and half crown.  The 3D mintage is listed as 128.  The current data of 66 and 62 only occurs in later catalogs, the first of which I know is the 1962 Kaplan.  This potentially implies that either mint sets were also distributed as the example I gave or maybe there aren't actually any 1931 3D as circulation strikes either, just as I believe for the 1933, 1934 and 1936 farthings.

As for the scarcity of the other KGV farthing, I don't consider them scarce in better grades, not for Union coinage or KGV.  They are easily more common than every other denomination except for the gold half sovereign and most sovereigns (excluding the 1923 and 1924) which circulated much less and possibly the 3D.

Union bronze coinage in RD (many of which exist today which don't actually look RD despite the label holder) are scarce or rare since the SA Mint intentionally darkened them up to 1942, or so it states in Hern to my recollection.  I have owned several of the earlier KGVI dates in the NGC population report in the past, specifically the 1937, 1938 and 1940 penny.  I would buy them at modest premiums to RB or BN coins but nothing more.