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South Africa circulated, proof and pattern coins 1874 - 2000

55 posts in this topic

Could not agree more on your view that the coins may be reject proofs. Sadly, once information is published its sort of then seen as gospel. Its a major effort to correct it thereafter. I also read about one been labelled as a 'specimen'piece.

Interestingly, in the earlier years reference was mostly made saying that there was 128 tickeys of 1931 - it was not seperated into proof and circulated figures.

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1 hour ago, morganthebrave said:

Yes - not many know about this set. In my opinion Its really not well designed or struck.  Usually South africa Mint do make awesome coinage. In this case someone was punching this set out at the SA Mint using a hammer and chisel.  :)

Still, despite World Colonial saying they may be over priced you would be hard pressed in obtaining a set. I would be willing to pay the price of $3000 USD for the set should one come up for offer. I have looked for many years with no luck. :(

If only I was Rockefella...I would then offer more!

 

 

I wasn't aware that the CATALOG price was $3000.  However, if you do not know it, this price is almost certainly just "made up".  This is true of Krause and also Hern.  Most collectors don't ever consider that the catalog prices hardly ever represent actual sales and since it is only released annually, can't be right in the internet age anyway.

What I meant is that if one of these coins was offered for sale, it would likely cost more to buy it than many Union coins which are known or likely to be scarcer in better grades.  However, since it is more recent, harder to buy than many of them and a greater emphasis is placed on low mintage recent coins, most others likely disagree with my opinion.

The set price of $3000 implies that the half crown and 1/2D you mentioned are worth a few hundred USD, the crowns somewhat more and the gold only somewhat more than any number of other recent proof sovereigns.  I don't believe anyone is actually going to sell it for this price.  The actual price is would take to buy it is likely some unspecified multiple which in my opinion makes it uncompetitive with many better Union and ZAR.

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2 hours ago, morganthebrave said:

Could not agree more on your view that the coins may be reject proofs. Sadly, once information is published its sort of then seen as gospel. Its a major effort to correct it thereafter. I also read about one been labelled as a 'specimen'piece.

Interestingly, in the earlier years reference was mostly made saying that there was 128 tickeys of 1931 - it was not seperated into proof and circulated figures.

I have a copy of the 1950 Kaplan guide which does not provide a breakout for the 1931 3D, florin and half crown.  I cannot remember if it does so for the 6D and shilling, as I do not have it with me.

I have seen enough of the half crown to believe these are actually circulation strikes.  I have also seen one 1931 florin but am aware of others who have either seen or owned this coin where I see no reason to believe that the currently accepted mintage of 383 circulation strikes isn't at least "ballpark" accurate.

The NGC population report lists three or four 1931 3D circulation strikes, I cannot remember which.  However, TPG occasionally make attribution errors so it is possible this happened here.  It happened to me once with a 1947 proof half crown and also with the previously listed 1947 "MS" 68 2 shillings.  I once asked the question here whether the difference between proofs and circulation strikes can be determined for really low grade coins (such as this one) and the reply was that if the mintage process was known, it can be done.  I don't know how to do it and don't know whether the TPG are familiar enough with the striking of early Union proof coinage, though I presume so if the dies in 1931 were sent from the UK as I understand.

There are also inconsistencies in the mintage records for the 1923 and 1924 sovereign between the 1950 Kaplan guide and subsequent guides.  With the 1923, the commonly accepted mintage is 719 with 64 circulation strikes.  However, in a prior listing, Dix Noonan Webb claimed it is actually 406 plus the 655 proofs.  I believe it was in the catalog of the Bentley collection but don't remember their explanation.

As for the 1933 and 1934 farthings, I have no direct knowledge of it.  Only that 28 and 52 should be enough coins where someone somewhere should have claimed owning it, if not now then in the past.  I have never heard this claim anywhere.  in theory, its possible they are out there somewhere and just not reported but I consider it unlikely.  The most likely source for these two coins and the 1931 circulation strike silver in better grades is the Mitchell collection.  The family's ZAR collection was sold in 2014 but DNW specifically told me they decided to keep the Union coinage.

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Double shaft vs single shaft ZAR Ponds.

Can collectors see the difference between the obv and rev of the double and single shaft gold coinage in the pictures?

Mintage is around 15 640 for circulation and 10 proofs. 

ds 1892 pond rev.JPG

ds 1892 pond.JPG

IMG_4384.JPG

IMG_4385.JPG

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very nice ponde Morgan, true beauties, for the novice collector they should look at the shafts pulling the wagon, one has a double and the other a single shaft, hence the names, but not a lot of people know there is actually a diffirence in wheels, the ground in front of the wagon on the left i would also say.

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10 hours ago, morganthebrave said:

Double shaft vs single shaft ZAR Ponds.

Can collectors see the difference between the obv and rev of the double and single shaft gold coinage in the pictures?

Mintage is around 15 640 for circulation and 10 proofs. 

 

It's easy enough to distinguish if the observer knows what to look for, though now I have to use a magnifier since my eyesight isn't what it used to be.

My recollection is that the change occurred due to a controversy from a misrepresentation of how wagons actually looked like at the time.  However, I cannot remember which variety came first and is the incorrect one.  The SS is much scarcer on the pond but somewhat more common for the crown.

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4 hours ago, morganthebrave said:

Thanks JC. I have a MS64 and MS65 double-shaft pond in my collection and some un-graded single shafts that look MS.

The population counts have increased a lot for ZAR generically since TPG became preferred around 2002 or so.  I still believe that many of these coins have a noticeable supply that will be added to the counts, as with the example you gave.  Many of the current owners likely do not like their coins in a holder and will only grade them when it is sold.

As another example, most of the Kruger "patterns" are still not graded and these maybe along with the OFS Kroon are the most elite from all South African coinage.  The "King of South African coinage", the 1898 "Single 9" pond  was only recently graded.  However, the half crown in gold which I rate as #2 is not.  The same applies to the most elite within the Union series.

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11 hours ago, World Colonial said:

It's easy enough to distinguish if the observer knows what to look for, though now I have to use a magnifier since my eyesight isn't what it used to be.

My recollection is that the change occurred due to a controversy from a misrepresentation of how wagons actually looked like at the time.  However, I cannot remember which variety came first and is the incorrect one.  The SS is much scarcer on the pond but somewhat more common for the crown.

 

11 hours ago, World Colonial said:

The population counts have increased a lot for ZAR generically since TPG became preferred around 2002 or so.  I still believe that many of these coins have a noticeable supply that will be added to the counts, as with the example you gave.  Many of the current owners likely do not like their coins in a holder and will only grade them when it is sold.

As another example, most of the Kruger "patterns" are still not graded and these maybe along with the OFS Kroon are the most elite from all South African coinage.  The "King of South African coinage", the 1898 "Single 9" pond  was only recently graded.  However, the half crown in gold which I rate as #2 is not.  The same applies to the most elite within the Union series.

Yes, the single 9 pond was graded. Talk has it that the owner was offered around 3,5 million USD a while back but turned it down.  The OFS "Kroon'  - have not seen any come onto the market for many years. Rare coins always do sell well. There is not much chance of collecting the rare ZAR pattern series  - high graded pattern coins and those patterns ungraded have disappeared altogether. I do search most auction houses in the hopes of obtaining a 'Kroon" (Graded or not) would help with my ZAR pattern collection.

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21 hours ago, morganthebrave said:

 

Yes, the single 9 pond was graded. Talk has it that the owner was offered around 3,5 million USD a while back but turned it down.  The OFS "Kroon'  - have not seen any come onto the market for many years. Rare coins always do sell well. There is not much chance of collecting the rare ZAR pattern series  - high graded pattern coins and those patterns ungraded have disappeared altogether. I do search most auction houses in the hopes of obtaining a 'Kroon" (Graded or not) would help with my ZAR pattern collection.

What patterns are you looking to buy?  The 2D you have below is nice but these along with the penny aren't really that scarce for patterns, only when considered in the context of the numerous different varieties such as the metal composition.  I don't believe hardly anyone is attempting to collect these coins in this manner.

You must not have looked in the same sources as I have because I have seen quite a few since 1998 though not recently.  Of the Kruger patterns, Baldwin's offered the half crown in copper (or bronze) sometime around 2005.  My recollection is the starting bid was 25,000 GBP but I can't remember if it sold.  It was one of the coins in the Royle Baldwin collection.  There is an article in the NGC archives on his collection covering the coins which were graded but this coin wasn't profiled.  Heritage also sold the 1897 6D in gold and I presume you are aware of this sale.

I have seen the Kroon several times, at least twice.  Heritage has one in their archives and either DNW or Baldwin's also sold at least one.

Of the Burgers patterns, Heritage and Stack's have sold the pond in copper at least once each and it might be the same coin, as the coin in the Heritage archives is graded bu the Stack's coin was not.  DNW or Baldwin's also sold the crown in aluminum and maybe the half crown also in aluminum.  However, these coins (however many there were which I cannot remember) were corroded and aren't eligible for a numerical grade.

Earlier when eBay actually had decent coins for sale and at sane prices, I once saw the Cape of Good Hope 2/6 or "silver penny".  This was probably around 2002 or 2003 before the big price run-up.  The coin sold for what was probably a cheap price at the time but I can't confirm it was genuine because it was ungraded and if so, I don't know if it is eligible for a numerical grade either.

Of all these coins, the one I have always liked most are the Burgers in silver.  One or two are in the NGC population report, though I believe in lower proof grades.  However, even if offered for sale I wouldn't try to buy them because it is almost certainly going to be at a price which isn't competitive with other coins which I consider better.

As for the 1898 "Single 9", its almost certainly worth a lot more than a collection of all the others combined (excluding the gold half crown) but I doubt near the $3.5MM previously offered.  Many collectors in South Africa seem to incorrectly believe that these types of coins only increase in value.  They don't.  They are mostly owned by "strong hands" and if offered for sale, almost always only under favorable market conditions.

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57 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

The 2D you have below is nice but these along with the penny aren't really that scarce for patterns, only when considered in the context of the numerous different varieties such as the metal composition.  I don't believe hardly anyone is attempting to collect these coins in this manner.

Finally World Colonial I have found your weak point - pattern coins! Actually, I am of the opinion that people chase the highest grades considerably even if there are 60 or more patterns of a specific type. The same can be said for the ZAR circulated pennies  - collectors tend to chase the RD penny and highest graded to compete in the collectors arena. 

Having a RD MS/PF 66 ZAR pattern penny will most certainly attract loads of interest. Collectors now seek the highest graded coin. 

As for the 2d above - its the mule of the ZAR series. Only one recorded. Unique in every way. Has loads of numismatic history. My personal favorite :)

Yes I agree - the Kroon patterns are so scarce and collectable as well as the Burgers pattern ponds, 2/6d and 5s.

I also do recall that HA sold the 6d and 2/6d gold in 2016 for a very high price.

I do have a small collection of patterns of which I am rather proud of but sadly still cannot obtain a KROON! Thanks World Colonial for your colorful conversations! 

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=9249

 

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1966 Afrikaaans legend silver one Rand variety. The 'tagged' ear. I have written to NGC/ PCGS to inform them about the variety back in 2015 and again in 2016. In my letter I provided references and several pictures. As of today, NGC/ PCGS have never bothered to reply. So sad as the 'Tagged ear', in my opinion look so cool!

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Mule are errors and by definition rare since they were created by accident.

I am aware of the preferences of South African collectors for TPG and the higher TPG grades.  This is the result of a buying culture similar to the United States (which is where South Africa got it from) which has created an outsized proportion of financial buyers which is why the prices of so many coins in both markets are so expensive and far above their relative numismatic merits by any sensible standard.  South African coins are much cheaper than US coins and much better numismatic values, but still more expensive in the aggregate than those from almost everywhere else.

Because of the price level, the more expensive coins from both countries ate not numismatically competitive versus the overwhelming percentage from elsewhere in the same price range. This is why there are few collectors outside of both markets who either do or will buy the more expensive coins and those who do will disproportionately also be financial buyers.  The only logical exception is expatriates but I don't believe there are that many from South Africa buying the more expensive coins because the collector base is not very large. 

As for the die variety you showed, there isn't much die variety collecting of South African coinage, not for ZAR, Union or RSA.  invariably, the die varieties collected the most are those listed in price guides which for SA is Hern and Krause.  The SS Pond is an example of a die variety and its being listed in the catalog is the most logical reason for its high price.  It is included in the definition of a "complete" set by tradition.

I presume (since I cannot recall) that the RSA variety you illustrate is not listed in Hern.  NGC attributes some varieties but they are not usually going to do it most of the time because most of them are so minor and there are many. 

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9 hours ago, World Colonial said:

the die varieties collected the most are those listed in price guides which for SA is Hern and Krause. 

Thanks World Colonial -always interesting to read your views. Pertaining to collectable varieties - it is true that a published variety will gain popularity.  There are several varieties in the South Africa coinage. Just thinking out aloud on the pre-decimal (Geo V, VI, QEII) - no KG initials on the 3d, no stop after dates, 3d  of 1945 struck over 1943 date....to name a few. Hern, MTB, Krause list most of the varieties. More varieties have surfaced recently thanks to the internet social platforms.

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Different effigies of George V . Last effigy is on a die made by Balmberger mint.  The company C. Balmberger was once, besides competitor L. Chr. Lauer, a leading minting institution in Germany from 1871 to 1980. 

Geo V  gold obv 1.jpg

Geo V obv.jpg

geo V.JPG

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On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 7:47 PM, morganthebrave said:

Thanks World Colonial -always interesting to read your views. Pertaining to collectable varieties - it is true that a published variety will gain popularity.  There are several varieties in the South Africa coinage. Just thinking out aloud on the pre-decimal (Geo V, VI, QEII) - no KG initials on the 3d, no stop after dates, 3d  of 1945 struck over 1943 date....to name a few. Hern, MTB, Krause list most of the varieties. More varieties have surfaced recently thanks to the internet social platforms.

There are many varieties in the Union series not listed in any annual price catalog.  Alex Uruzzi published a partial list in his multiple Nomisma volumes.  I was able to buy volumes 1 and 2 but not 3.

The problem with collecting die varieties in the Union series is that completing anything as a "generic" date (since most date/denomination combinations were presumably not produced from a single die and also actually varieties) is so difficult that there is no point to it.  The work Alex did was entirely academic because I see no prospect that hardly any of the denominations will ever be collected this way.  The best indication of this is that the varieties listed in works are limited to the most common denominations such as the 3D.  Since I don't have Volume 3 he may have identified others but I didn't see any for the 1/. 2/ and 2/6.

What I am describing isn't limited to Union coinage but any series which is unusually scarce.  Gilboy published numerous varieties for the pillar coinage struck in Bolivia, Guatemala, Mexico and Peru.  (None for Chile or Colombia.)  However, the five denominations for these four mints contain approximately 400 coins (Union has about 300 each for proofs and circulation strikes) and an outsized proportion of these coins are so hard to buy it is also pointless to complete any series (mint/denomination combination) by variety, though I have noticed from the prices that a few apparently do.

The best candidate for die variety collecting is actually ZAR but outside of the D/S pond and crown, I have never heard of it.  With only 63 coins in the series covering bronze, silver and gold, I am somewhat surprised it doesn't exist since its by far the most popular series. The price level indicates that collectors actually attempt to complete their sets (as opposed to Union) and the supply is sufficient in circulated grades to make it feasible for a reasonably large collector population.

RSA is also common enough where it is feasible.  However, the mintages and survival rates presumably result in too many of them and there isn't enough interest in this coinage where I see it happening more than selectively, as exists today.

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On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:23 PM, morganthebrave said:

Different effigies of George V . Last effigy is on a die made by Balmberger mint.  The company C. Balmberger was once, besides competitor L. Chr. Lauer, a leading minting institution in Germany from 1871 to 1980. 

Geo V  gold obv 1.jpg

Geo V obv.jpg

geo V.JPG

Out of curiosity, what date is the KGV silver coin?  It's my favorite 20th century design.

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The KGV is the scarce 1931 proof obverse! Lovely is all I can say! :)

8 hours ago, World Colonial said:

Out of curiosity, what date is the KGV silver coin?  It's my favorite 20th century design.

 

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18 hours ago, morganthebrave said:

President B.J. Vorster coinage of 1982 is, in my opinion, a very poor effigy. Then the Mandela 2000 Effigy seems to also be of a  very poor design.

I don't care for any of the portrait RSA coinage through I like the wildlife obverses from the early 1970's which were in use when I lived in Johannesburg from 1972 to 1974..  I also don't care for most of the current circulating designs in US coinage.  I collect Spanish colonial pillars but don't particularly care for the Charles III and Charles IV portraits either.

Generally, I don't care for portrait coinage unless it is an allegorical design, such as early US federal.  Examples from historical people I do like include KGV from South Africa, Australia and Canada, the Mary Gillick QEII young head, Venezuelan Simon Bolivar and the first effigy Queen Victoria young head.

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11 hours ago, morganthebrave said:

ZAR 2.5 shilling (half crown). 1896.

55 000 circulated. only 50 proof.

two and half shilling 1896 rev 2.jpg

For those who are not familiar with the ZAR series, you left out that the proofs were only struck in 1892.  Nice 1896 2/6 by the way.

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