pcgs 0

[Just Bob]

2 hours ago, wking994 said:

Just some info on grading standards between the two grading companies. 3 months ago I did a grading test with NGC. I cracked 6 different year Morgans all MS65 from PCGS..  2 were brand new slabs graded at the end of last year. 3 were graded almost 3 years ago, and one in an old green holder. 5 came back MS64 one came back MS63+..........

What were the coins? - if you don't mind me asking.

[SSB Coins]

You are correct, NGC is selling a service, would you want you some one selling the same service as you and next to you. That being said, both are grading new coins lower as to get the older coins out in the public for collectors to find them. With all the new coin mints out there with new machines, very few MS 70 still MS 69 are being put in the market, and the low number of MS 70 coins draw a better price. If you have a nice coin just put it up and save it. NGC or PCGS will not make much if your kids have them.

[GW]

I agree with the decision only NGC coins should be allowed on the NGC registry just like PMG notes should only be allowed on the PMG registry. Otherwise any coin should be allowed certified or raw coins. PCGS can always set up a registry to include NGC coins if they want. 

[CHARLES MOORE]

On 4/13/2017 at 1:06 AM, KDG710 said:

This is a big mistake!  Are we collecting coins or holders?  Now we have the label scam, it's no longer the coin but the SPECIAL labels and the holder that control the price. (Soon Mickey Mouse will be signing labels) To make things worse we pay top dollar for these special labels and they aren't even reflected in the collection manager, I have many John Mercanti signed labels but when entering the cert# they come up as any other coin and the price of the standard brown labels. ie 1994 P PF70 UC Mercanti signed label with a price guide of $1500!  2016 W PF 70UC Mercanti FDOI enter cert# comes up as 2016 W PF70UCFDOI with a price of $95! I couldn't buy these coins for that price anywhere Pre-sales were $129, now you can't find one to buy under $189 if at all

This makes it very hard to justify why I'm buying these SPECIAL holders when it always shows me I'm losing money, buy a coin for $895 only to have NGC tell me it's only worth $375.  You sell the labels and grade the coins PLEASE update your database to reflect the proper labeling and pricing.

Thanks

I recently sent in 4 PCGS Coins in their holders  for a cross over to  the NGC label of the same  grade. All four were Morgan Dollars. I paid $198 for the four coins and the Standard I spent $46 for the postage and insurance for a total of $244. This is $61.00 for each coin whether the coin is re-holdered or not.I posted on another area where several months ago somebody tried to transfer a coin in my possession to their Registry and NGC made me submit my coin for evaluation and even cancelled the certification number so I couldn't keep it in my Registry and had to send it in to NGC and it took them several weeks to grade my coin and return it even though it had always been in my possession.I kept asking whether  the person requesting the transfer of  the coin in my possession was asked to do the same with no answer from NGC., My coin was an NGC graded coin and was eventually returned to me in the same grade and a new certification number,  I have to ask what would have happened if this coin had been in a PCGS holder and could have been  graded below  it grade even though I was subjected to having to prove that a coin that had been in my possesssion for some time just because somebody else that obviously did not have the coin requested it. Rejecting all four PCGS coins is a 100% rejection. Who is going to pay $61 a coin for 100% rejection?Not me.

[Ali E.]

Hello, Charles.

We don't require customers to send in coins if there is an NGC Registry transfer request. Last fall, you and another person each had coins with the same certification number on the label, so there was a concern that one of the holders was an attempted counterfeit. That is why the graders asked to see (both) coins again. Our apologies for any convenience at that time.

[Cozdred]

I just joined NGC a little over a year ago, so I'm very late to see this topic. However, it's extremely interesting to me, and I would like to add a few comments. 

Prior to 2020, I did not own a single graded coin, from any TPG service, although I've been a collector off and on for many decades.  Early in 2020, I finally decided that graded coins were acceptable and I started purchasing a few of them. I bought a mix of PCGS and NGC coins.  In 2022 when I became interested in registering a few sets, I first joined PCGS. But when I found out they do not accept NGC coins, I was not happy.  Furthermore, when I considered how they score coins in sets, it seemed obvious to me that it was massively skewed in favor of complete sets, since each coin appears to me to be graded solely on condition, with no regard to relative rarity.  So a very common coin in MS65 gets a much higher score than an exceedingly rare coin in AU50.  Makes no sense to me, so I quickly abandoned the idea of registering with PCGS. Next I tried NGC, and found that the US $20 gold categories accepted both NGC and PCGS coins. Also, the scoring system of the NGC registry rightfully takes rarity into account. So this seemed like the place for me, and I added my mixed NGC/PCGS sets.  So I'm a bit confused about the earlier 2017 posts which imply that no PCGS coins are allowed here. Was the decision changed sometime between 2017 and 2022?

Sometime early in 2022 I decided to start collecting British gold sovereigns, and as usual I bought a mix of PCGS and NGC coins. But when I went to register them here, I found that PCGS coins are NOT allowed in World sets. At first that was a bit disappointing. But I sent in the handful of PCGS coins I had to be crossed over, and they all received the same grade when put into new NGC holders. Did cost a bit of money, but now I knew the rules of the game. 

One year later, I've made some interesting observations...  there were a few times when I saw PCGS coins for sale or in an auction, which the NGC pop census showed to be very scarce, so I opted to buy them and submit later for crossover.  Of the dozen PGCS coins I've submitted, fully half of them were rejected by NGC graders! They were simply returned to me in the PCGS holder with no explanation of any kind. After carefully examining each coin, I found possible problems. Two seemed to have scratches from an old cleaning, one possibly had rim filing on one side. I'm no expert on coin grading, but it's possible that a couple of others might have been one grade too high. However, a couple of coins looked completely normal and properly graded to me, and one of them was extremely expensive.  So I filed a complaint with NGC asking for an explanation as to why this coin was not crossed. I did not insist that it be crossed; i only insisted that any submitter who's paid his money has the right to a written explanation of WHY a coin is rejected. If NGC thinks it's over-graded, that's subjective and not open to question. But if the coin has some hidden flaw that makes it ungradable, that is critical information for the owner, and after paying $50 to $60 each, an explanation seems due. In the case of the very expensive reject, a note was added to the final report stating that the coin had an "altered mintmark."  I immediately examined it again, and I have to agree with NGC. There are very faint signs of this, which PCGS completely missed.  Too bad for me.   

During the past year, I'm examined hundreds of coins that I was interested in purchasing, many graded by NGC and many graded by PCGS. I look for coins with good "eye appeal," and tend to reject about half of what I see immediately. I'm no expert on coin grading, but I've noticed a trend. I've seen quite a few NGC coins that I thought were over-graded. But I've found that most of them seem correct. On the other hand, it appears to me that the majority of PCGS coins are over-graded, some to an extreme degree. I think Mr. Salzburg must have come to the same conclusion in 2017, but was very careful how he said it. My experience over the past year has shown me that PCGS grading standards are not nearly as strict as NGC's. Furthermore, I collect unusual varieties of older coins, and PCGS makes horrible mistakes assigning varieties. They don't seem to care, since they do not guarantee varieties, only grades. But still, I would think they would have some professional pride that would get them to do the most accurate job possible. In one case, I sent a note to them about a situation in which all three of the examples shown for one coin were very clearly the wrong variety, and after 9 months they have not removed the offending images. Sadly, they just don't care if their graders look incompetent. 

As of now, I've decided that I will never again purchase another World gold coin in a PCGS holder. I'm tired of wasting my money hoping that their graders did a proper job and NGC will cross it over. I've been disappointed too many times. This is in no way blaming NGC of course. The blame is entirely on PCGS for doing a poor job!  Not noticing cleaned coins, filed rims, incorrect varieties, and removed mintmarks is inexcusable for people who purport to be professional graders. I've come to the point of having no confidence at all in their products. So I completely agree with Mr. Salzburg. Allowing PCGS over-graded coins to compete here alongside NGC coins is absolutely unfair and should not be allowed.  

While I applaud Mr. Salzburg for his ethical decision to uphold strict grading standards, that may not be a smart business decision!  If I had a raw coin that I wished to sell, I would naturally send it to PCGS, since the odds of getting a higher grade seem quite likely to me.  But on the other hand, if I'm looking to purchase a coin, NGC is the only way to go IMHO.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

One final comment... it's very bad practice for NGC to simply return un-crossed PCGS coins with no explanation whatsoever!! This is essentially stealing money from customers!  If I pay the price to have a coin examined, I deserve to have it given a grade or a reason why it would not be graded. The NGC grader must have a reason in his head when he rejects a coin, so there needs to be a new policy that places that explanation on the final submission report.  I'm astonished that after 35 years in business, this obvious improvement in service has never been addressed. I do hope someone in authority will force this change!

 

 

 

[Coinbuf]

On 5/27/2023 at 4:29 PM, Cozdred said:

I do hope someone in authority will force this change!

I would not hold your breath waiting for that change.

[Sandon]

On 5/27/2023 at 7:29 PM, Cozdred said:

I'm a bit confused about the earlier 2017 posts which imply that no PCGS coins are allowed here.

   The NGC Registry has generally accepted PCGS graded U.S. coins, except for a few years around late 2016 to, I think, sometime in 2019, when no additional PCGS coins could be added. This policy was very unpopular and was rescinded. (I wouldn't be using the NGC Registry otherwise.) PCGS has generally been the preferred grading service for earlier, now sometimes called "vintage" U.S. coins, so the refusal to allow U.S. coins placed the NGC Registry at a disadvantage.  I have read on the NGC website (but can't presently find where) that the reason for NGC not including PCGS graded world coins on the registry is because NGC and PCGS use distinctly different systems of classification for these coins, and NGC personnel would have difficulty determining the sets and slots in which many PCGS world coins could be placed.   

On 5/27/2023 at 7:29 PM, Cozdred said:

I've seen quite a few NGC coins that I thought were over-graded. But I've found that most of them seem correct. On the other hand, it appears to me that the majority of PCGS coins are over-graded, some to an extreme degree.

   While some may agree with you, many dealers and collectors I know maintain that--at least where U.S. coins are concerned--PCGS tends to be the more conservative grading service, is especially stingy in awarding grades of "67" and higher on non-modern coins, and is more likely than NGC to "details" grade a coin as impaired. Some dealers have told me that they submit more coins to NGC than to PCGS because they tend to get higher numerical grades and fewer "details" grades from NGC.  What is really important, as you have discovered, is that a particular coin be acceptable to you in your own, educated judgment and obtainable at a price that you are willing to pay. The real problem, in my opinion, is with the concept of numerical grading itself, which allows for too many grades based on too many variables, each of which involves a degree of subjectivity.  Another problem is the apparent changes in grading standards over time. 

   Regarding the coin that NGC concluded has an "altered mintmark", which I assume means that the mintmark was altered to make it appear that the coin came from a different mint than it actually did, you may wish to take this up with PCGS. If this alteration cam be established, PCGS may have an obligation to you under its guarantee of authenticity, whose terms you should review.

   You may find of interest the following topics I have posted regarding current grading practices:

   

 

[Cozdred]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:25 PM, Sandon said:

   

   While some may agree with you, many dealers and collectors I know maintain that--at least where U.S. coins are concerned--PCGS tends to be the more conservative grading service, is especially stingy in awarding grades of "67" and higher on non-modern coins, and is more likely than NGC to "details" grade a coin as impaired. Some dealers have told me that they submit more coins to NGC than to PCGS because they tend to get higher numerical grades and fewer "details" grades from NGC.  What is really important, as you have discovered, is that a particular coin be acceptable to you in your own, educated judgment and obtainable at a price that you are willing to pay. The real problem, in my opinion, is with the concept of numerical grading itself, which allows for too many grades based on too many variables, each of which involves a degree of subjectivity.  Another problem is the apparent changes in grading standards over time. 

 

Yes, I'm only talking about my very limited one-year experience with British gold sovereigns. All of my US silver coins were acquired raw, long before grading was popular, so I don't have any opinion on any TPG for US issues. What I really found disturbing was not that NGC might think a PCGS coin was a level too high, but that they determined the coins were not gradable due to problems. IMO there's no excuse for any TPG to miss something like that, and that's why I won't buy any more PCGS coins. Been burned too many times.  Plus, the fact that they so flagrantly mis-assign varieties and don't seem to care to correct mistakes tells me something about their corporate philosophy. Even several auction houses I deal with have pointed out how badly PCGS misses on varieties. So this is a well-known problem as far as British sovs go.

 

On 5/27/2023 at 9:25 PM, Sandon said:

   Regarding the coin that NGC concluded has an "altered mintmark", which I assume means that the mintmark was altered to make it appear that the coin came from a different mint than it actually did, you may wish to take this up with PCGS. If this alteration cam be established, PCGS may have an obligation to you under its guarantee of authenticity, whose terms you should review.

 

 

There is clearly a removed mintmark, which can be verified by another feature of this coin which only appears on the branch mint coin.  You can only see the evidence with coin in hand, tilted at an angle, so the image listed by the auction house didn't reveal it. I've examined the PCGS "guarantee" very carefully, and it is basically worthless as far as I'm concerned.  If you return a coin that they agree is improperly graded, PCGS only will refund what "a dealer can purchase the coin for," that is, wholesale.  And PCGS alone determines that price, not a panel of independent experts!  Well, I'm not a dealer, and I pay retail. And it's obviously in PCGS's best interest to quote me the lowest price they think they can get away with. This is monstrously unfair. PCGS should refund the price that I paid and have a valid receipt for IMO.  To make matters worse, if I disagree and It's a large amount, I can only sue PCGS in the CA county where they reside, nowhere else!  Any attempt to sue in any other location instantly voids the "guarantee." Cute. A pathetic excuse for a "guarantee" so extremely weak indicates to me that PCGS has no interest whatsoever in standing behind their work. These ridiculous policies are designed to cheat the vast majority of people who get badly graded PCGS material.  I'd be very surprised if anyone has ever filed a claim with PCGS, unless they enjoy losing money.

 

[Sandon]

On 5/28/2023 at 6:36 PM, Cozdred said:

There is clearly a removed mintmark, which can be verified by another feature of this coin which only appears on the branch mint coin.  You can only see the evidence with coin in hand, tilted at an angle, so the image listed by the auction house didn't reveal it. I've examined the PCGS "guarantee" very carefully, and it is basically worthless as far as I'm concerned.  If you return a coin that they agree is improperly graded, PCGS only will refund what "a dealer can purchase the coin for," that is, wholesale. 

      I'm referring to the provisions of the "PCGS Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity" that refer to "authenticity". "All U.S. and World coins graded and encapsulated by PCGS are guaranteed genuine."  A coin whose mintmark has been added, removed or otherwise altered to make it appear to be a different issue is generally regarded by numismatists as a fake and equivalent to a counterfeit.  Such a coin is supposed to be rejected by a grading service as "altered" and returned in a flip. Assuming that the coin is still in its PCGS holder, I would contact PCGS customer service about this, as they should pay compensation in these circumstances.

    You also stated that PCGS has misattributed varieties on some of your coins. You should be able to have these coins re-holdered with correct labels at no charge by PCGS, although you will probably have to pay to ship them to PCGS. (I had a U.S. coin that said "Fifteen Stars" on the on the holder when it was actually the "Thirteen Stars" variety. I took this coin to a show where PCGS was doing on-site grading, and PCGS re-holdered the coin with the correct label the same day without charge. I'm not even a PCGS member.) You may want to take this up with PCGS customer service as well.  

[Cozdred]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:20 PM, Sandon said:

 

    You also stated that PCGS has misattributed varieties on some of your coins. You should be able to have these coins re-holdered with correct labels at no charge by PCGS, although you will probably have to pay to ship them to PCGS. (I had a U.S. coin that said "Fifteen Stars" on the on the holder when it was actually the "Thirteen Stars" variety. I took this coin to a show where PCGS was doing on-site grading, and PCGS re-holdered the coin with the correct label the same day without charge. I'm not even a PCGS member.) You may want to take this up with PCGS customer service as well.  

 

Not on any of my coins. I am very well-versed in sovereign varieties, and I simply avoid all of their mistakes. And I see a LOT of their mistakes, many of which can easily be seen with the naked eye with no magnification needed. Simply due to incompetent grader.  As an aside, I should mention that many auction houses have very poorly qualified cataloguers as well, and make serious mistakes on varieties.  I frequently take advantage of such lots "on sale". 

And for less knowledgeable folks, sometimes it's too late to get re-holdered!  Just a few months ago I saw a gold sov offered in a London auction, with a very rare variety attributed on the PCGS holder. Being familiar with the item, I recognized instantly (as any supposedly professional grader should) that this was in fact NOT the rare variety but the common one that shows up about 100 times more often.  At the end of the auction, some sad collector or investor who buys "slabs" rather than coins paid a very large amount for the coin (nearly 5 figures), about 15 times what the true variety sells for.  At some point in the future, he or somebody he sells it to is going to finally get called out on the true identity, and there will be NO recompense by PCGS since they specifically state they do not certify varieties.  Caveat emptor, eh?  And if you're dealing with PCGS material, better check twice...

 

[CHARLES MOORE]

I  would also like to know the Status of PCGS coins for  the Registry, I sent in four PCGS coins  for a crossover to  the NGC label. I didn't ask for an upgrade. Just wanted the four PCGS coins (Morgan Dollars)  to crossover to NGC with the same grade, All four PCGS coins were rejected. What are the odds of 100% rejections of four PCGS  Morgan dollars of different dates?

[Coinbuf]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:25 AM, CHARLES MOORE said:

I  would also like to know the Status of PCGS coins for  the Registry, I sent in four PCGS coins  for a crossover to  the NGC label. I didn't ask for an upgrade. Just wanted the four PCGS coins (Morgan Dollars)  to crossover to NGC with the same grade, All four PCGS coins were rejected. What are the odds of 100% rejections of four PCGS  Morgan dollars of different dates?

Better than you might think, back when NGC suspended the use of US coins graded by PCGS into the NGC registry I sent 10 or 12 coins PCGS graded to NGC for crossover to use in the registry.    Several had CAC green beans and all failed, honestly I was rather surprised and infuriated at those results, adding insult to injury is that it was only a few months later that NGC reopened the US sets to PCGS graded coins.   Meaning that all I did was waste money on those crossover attempts.

What I have come to know is that both PCGS and NGC have very low crossover rates, yet if those same coins are cracked out and submitted raw they often grade the same at each TPG.   While I will never know for sure this strikes me as more of a politics game than anything else.   As a result I will never send a coin for crossover to either PCGS or NGC, I just don't think that either firm is fair in this service.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Coinbuf