New PayPal policy

[agentjim007]

Subject came up ATS. New PayPal policies start 3/29/2017. Policy states no PayPal protection for financial products. They are brain storming ATS concluding this does not apply to coins/currency, apparently no one called PayPal to find out for sure. I called PayPal and was told the entire floor was instructed that this new policy does apply to coins, currency, even obsolete coins ( I used Roman coins in my example). The guy sounded quite certain of this new policy but if someone wants to see if he was mistaken be my guest. I hope he was wrong. That would basically shut down trade on the BST and eBay except for established dealers. 

[bstrauss3]

Why does it shutdown eBay?

They are a separate company from PayPal and offer a couple different ways to pay.

[Star City Homer]

What number did you call?  Would be interesting to hear if they give a consistent answer...which doesn't always happen. I wonder if eBay will make a note of this during payment.

[agentjim007]

It doesn't literally shut down eBay but I know I wouldn't buy from an unknown seller without PayPal protection on eBay or on the BST. Keep in mind we're talking coins, you can still buy other stuff and still get PayPal protection. Log into PayPal and go through the contact us links. I would like someone else give it a try and see if they are consistent. The guy I talked to said the floor was instructed as if the boss told all the phone reps. that the new policy no longer covers coins.

[mumu]

Time to sell beanie babies with a free 1921 Peace dollar thrown in for the price of a 1921 Peace dollar.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am interested in what the Federal authorities would think about this "policy". Not that it is questionable in relation to all debts public or private or anything. BTW, is a non-retired Bond a financial instrument?

[Star City Homer]

4 hours ago, mumu said:

Time to sell beanie babies with a free 1921 Peace dollar thrown in for the price of a 1921 Peace dollar.

 

Okay, this is what I sent them:

 

Hello, I would like a little clarification on the new 'financial instrument' policy.

1.  Does this include collectible coins?
2.  Is there a distinction between different items to be found in the 'coin' category?
3.  Does this apply to obsolete coinage (ie. de-monetized and of zero value for exchange).  Many of these are sold in denominations that no longer exist or even for governments that no longer exist (think pre-euro coins of Europe or coins from ancient Illyria etc).
4.  Does it apply to any coin that is sold for more than 'face value' or for bullion value?
5.  Does this apply to bullion coins that are explicitly made as a collectible and so designated by a government body (such as proof coins which are not valued based on face value or bullion content).
6.  If applying to 'all coins' does PayPal understand that many things are sold in the 'coins' section of eBay that are exonumia and don't have any stated monetary value (ie medals)?
7.  Same questions for obsolete banknotes?
8.  Same questions for those who collect obsolete/cancelled stock certificates?
9.  If coins/notes are 'graded' and encased in third party holders does affect their status as collectibles?

 

I'm sure I could have worded all that better, but I'm only halfway into my first cup of coffee.  It still may be a problem for modern collectors, which is why I threw the TPG in.  I'm of the opinion if an item sells based on face value or strict bullion value it could fall under their edict.  Otherwise they are just being insufficiently thoughtful if not borderline deceitful for de-monetized/obsolete items.  Hmm, deceitful is not the word, but I can't think of the right one now.

I wonder how much actual $$ in coin related transactions PayPal funds...and if anyone over there thought about it.  Or, maybe they lose too much in chargebacks and fraud claims and this is a nice way to dump the category.  Hate PayPal as a seller as the fees are atrocious (and getting worse) but I will miss it as a buyer as it's terribly convenient, especially when buying from overseas.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Instead of deceitful, legally questionable would work. Noting wrong with the wording. Active banknotes and active monetary instruments ( a lot of collectors buy 'modern" paper money, and it is both a collectible and a financial instrument, as are "modern" coins. Active Bonds could have been added, but I think your point is made. Restraint of trade would be another thought. Violation of banking laws would be another. I have a safety box in the bank. The bank is paid for rental of the safety box. The bank has certain federal responsibilities concerning the box...the use of it, the protection of it, and the insurance (limitations) of it. And?

[agentjim007]

I edited my original post if this makes a difference. I reread the terms and it actually says financial products not financial instruments.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

2 minutes ago, insanecoholips said:

I edited my original post if this makes a difference. I reread the terms and it actually says financial products not financial instruments.

Understood. I stand pat, on the semantic escape language used by PayPal. Product in lieu of instrument does not imply a higher level of acceptability of the  legality of the "policy". I doubt this "policy" will survive the first legal challenge. There is a lot of hidden wampum in that "policy", and that wampum belongs to the user of the service, not the service owners. This is no less a cash grab than the Deutsche Bank scheme.

[agentjim007]

Policy also states if you don't agree with the new terms cancel your PayPal account ( maybe not exact I'm going by memory but I got the point right). I don't see why it could be a legal matter. It's their business they don't have to offer protection to anyone if you don't like it don't use it. I won't be using it for coin purchases unless I know it's safe like Great Collections and I wouldn't expect anyone to buy from me unless they know me. If true I would expect more seller scams (seller sends empty box? Too bad no protection) and almost no buyer scams ( buyer says box is empty when it is not, too bad no protection) unless you have some protection through a credit card. 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I guess you are right. there is nothing legally questionable. They are just a business transferring money from one entity/person/company to another entity/person/company.  They get to decide what and how and who participates in the money transfer business.

You are also right...don't like it don't use it. For anything at all.

[coinman_23885]

22 hours ago, insanecoholips said:

Subject came up ATS. New PayPal policies start 3/29/2017. Policy states no PayPal protection for financial products. They are brain storming ATS concluding this does not apply to coins/currency, apparently no one called PayPal to find out for sure. I called PayPal and was told the entire floor was instructed that this new policy does apply to coins, currency, even obsolete coins ( I used Roman coins in my example). The guy sounded quite certain of this new policy but if someone wants to see if he was mistaken be my guest. I hope he was wrong. That would basically shut down trade on the BST and eBay except for established dealers. 

 

I don't think the term "financial instrument" encompasses collectible coins and paper money.   Nevertheless, I don't think it would shut down coin sales even if your interpretation proved to be correct.  Simply use a credit card through PayPal and you could do a chargeback if necessary.  Problem solved.

[agentjim007]

24 minutes ago, coinman_23885 said:

 

Not my interpretation, this is what I was told by PayPal. I always use my PayPal credit account so I can take up to 6 months to pay but I'll have to start using my CC so I have some recourse.

[Star City Homer]

It's their business, their rules as long as they aren't excluding a protected group.  I did not mean to imply they COULD NOT impose the rules, only that their wording was 'unclear'.  Not deceitful in a legal sense so much as an obscuring sense.  Perhaps 'an obfuscating manner' was what the word/phrase I was searching for in my under caffeinated state.

And, it's not like you can't use PayPal for transactions, only that one would lose buyer's protection.  

Thanks for the edit re: product vs. instrument.  IMO 'instrument' would be a negotiable financial item in current use and much easier to argue against (ie for obsolete coinage/cancelled certificates etc).  

A product sounds more like it could actually include collectibles, perhaps of any sort.  Anything that might be touted on late night TV as a 'collectible sure to rise in value'...so maybe that Beanie Baby won't really be a safe haven after all.

Google-fu has it that Financial Products  include banking, CASH, credit cards, gift cards, insurance products, mortgages, credits, loans, and INVESTMENTS.  

If one considers collectibles part of their 'investments', 'retirement planning' or 'estate planning' it could qualify.  If PayPal chooses to interpret collectibles in this fashion coins could qualify.  One argument against would be the IRS treatment of collectibles--the precious metal etfs are taxed as collectibles vs investments.

Sort of like putting the fox in charge of the henhouse and picking the rules and security measures.  Once there was a claim, then suddenly one's 'collectible' would be considered a financial product at the convenience of the fox/PayPal.

Well, I await their response and will share once/if I get one.

 

[coinman_23885]

PayPal isn't a bank or at least that it is what it convinced federal regulators including the FDIC.  I'm sure money changed hands behind closed doors for that one.   PayPal lends money (PayPal credit), holds money, allows deposits and withdrawals, etc.  

[coinman_23885]

2 hours ago, insanecoholips said:

Not my interpretation, this is what I was told by PayPal. I always use my PayPal credit account so I can take up to 6 months to pay but I'll have to start using my CC so I have some recourse.

 

 

 

 

So PayPal said that the coverage would no longer apply to collectible coins and currency? Your original post makes it sound as if PayPal said the new policy does NOT apply to coins, meaning that the items are protected.  With the updated wording (re financial product versus financial instrument), I am even more convinced that the term was not meant to encompass collectibles.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

  There are some healthcare facilities/practitioners/insurance carriers that have a slightly different thought about the matter.

We shall see. When FDIC runs a stress test on PayPal, or ACA calls for a CMS activity audit, we might...just might...wonder. Just a little. About what can do what. It is like Venice in the 1500s inside PayPal, with an assigned Dutch Desk.

[agentjim007]

1 hour ago, coinman_23885 said:

So PayPal said that the coverage would no longer apply to collectible coins and currency? Your original post makes it sound as if PayPal said the new policy does NOT apply to coins, meaning that the items are protected.  With the updated wording (re financial product versus financial instrument), I am even more convinced that the term was not meant to encompass collectibles.

I thought I was clear. As of 3/29/2017 coins, bullion, currency, Roman coins, foreign coins, All coins and currency will NOT be covered by PayPal protection. This is what I was clearly told by phone rep. who made it clear this is exactly what he was told. Why doesn't someone else call to verify? Took me about 5 minutes. 

[Conder101]

Simply use a credit card through PayPal and you could do a chargeback if necessary.  Problem solved.

Might work once, maybe twice, but you would quickly find that you no longer have a paypal account.

[coinman_23885]

3 hours ago, Conder101 said:

 

 

Might work once, maybe twice, but you would quickly find that you no longer have a paypal account.

1

If it doesn't cover what I usually purchase online, then it is no good to me anyway.  Why should I care?

For anyone interested, you can use Google Wallet and pay through a credit card.  The credit card will give you protection from the most egregious fraud.

[Star City Homer]

So, in typical PayPal fashion, this is the response I got to the above questions..

 

Quote

Hello XXXXXXXXXX, 

Thanks for your e-mail. Based on your selection, we are sending you some details about eBay coupons. If the following information doesn't answer all your questions, please reply to this email and one of our customer service representatives will be happy to assist you. 

A. How do I get an eBay coupon?

You may receive an eBay coupon by email, through your My Messages in your eBay account, through a website offer, or from a mailed catalog or postcard. All coupons are sent randomly and contain a redemption code you must enter during checkout to redeem the coupon. 

Coupons are non-transferable and can't be shared. 

Here is a tip to make sure your eBay account is setup to receive eBay promotional coupons: 

1.Log in to your eBay account and go to My eBay. 
2.Under Account, click Notification Preferences. 
3.On the Notification Preferences page, under Promotions and Surveys, click the Show link. The list expands to show your current selections. 
4.Check the box of the promotion or survey you want to receive. Note: Coupons are usually sent through email, so make sure that General email promotions is checked. 
5.After making your selections, click Save.

 

B. Why don't I get eBay coupons?

From time to time, eBay offers coupons to certain groups of members. Coupons may be received via email, an on-site offer, or a mailed catalog or postcard. Unfortunately, you are not eligible for a coupon at this time. 

Please remember that in order to receive coupons from eBay via email you need to have your preferences set to receive Newsletters, Promotions and Event Notification email from eBay. To do this: 

1.Log into your eBay account. 
2.Go to My eBay. 
3.Select the Account tab. 
4.Select Communication Preferences from the list. 
5.Under Communication Preferences, click the Show link in the Promotions and Surveys section. 
6.Make sure the boxes are checked to receive promotional messages. 
7.Click Save.

 

C. Can I share an eBay coupon?

Only invited registered eBay users who received this offer by email from us or saw an ad on eBay are eligible for this coupon. 

You can confirm your eligibility by checking "My Messages" in My eBay and looking for your invitation email. Coupons are non-transferable and cannot be shared with others. 
 

 

Thanks, 
PayPal 

Copyright © 1999-2017 PayPal. All rights reserved.

 

Seriously.  So on a whim I just called.  First I pointed out how inappropriate the response was.  

Next I asked to have answers to my original questions as to what was included as a financial product/instrument--while noting that the IRS considers all as collectibles including Gold/Silver ETFs and bullion with regard to taxation.

The agent first tried to discuss eBay coupons, and I again pointed out that had nothing to do with my email.

Next she tried to say I had to talk to eBay.  I informed her that this had nothing to do with eBay as this was a question about the recent notification for upcoming changes to PayPal policy.

She tried to insist and I pointed out that eBay is only one single venue and this was only peripherally related to eBay as it is only one site.

I then asked to speak to a supervisor as it did appear that she was unwilling to answer PayPal questions and merely shunt everything over to eBay.  

She suddenly knew how to pull up the PayPal buyer protection policy after all.  

She read the current one back.  I politely pointed out that was not what the upcoming policy changes stated.  She said it was the same.  I said put it in writing and email me.  

I will not hold my breath.  According to this unexceptional specimen everything other than boats, real estate and motor vehicles will remain covered.

[VegasJeff]

Define "Financial Products". I don't think that would include "Numismatics". 

[Star City Homer]

34 minutes ago, VegasJeff said:

Define "Financial Products". I don't think that would include "Numismatics". 

Yep, and I wouldn't have guessed numismatic items except for the response the OP got to his/her phone call specifically included numismatic items.  Even though the IRS treats bullion products as collectibles I can at least see that falling under financial product from a business sense.  Including ancient coins, and other numismatic items seems egregious...yet that is what the OP reported.

 

Well, I got a second message from PayPal telling me how to open a dispute (closer but not quite what I asked) and I FINALLY got a third message--the highlighting theirs. Notice how it does not address the upcoming changes , just the current policy.  

 

<<

Dear XXXXXXXXXX

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

- Real estate, including residential property

- Businesses

- Vehicles, including motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats

- Significantly Not As Described claims on custom-made items

- Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy

- Item not received claims for items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf.

- Industrial machinery used in manufacturing

- Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards

- PayPal Direct Payments

- Virtual Terminal Payments

- Personal Payments
- For INR (non-receipt) claims, items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought through In-Store Checkout at the retail point of sale

- Purchases for precious metals (i.e. gold, silver, platinum, etc.) purchased in bulk (bullion) or in individual coins are currently excluded from coverage 
  

To learn more about PayPal Purchase Protection, simply click "Legal" at the bottom of any PayPal page and then click "PayPal User Agreement." Or kindly refer to this link for further information 

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full >>>

 

The applicable sentence can be weaseled...

- Purchases for precious metals (i.e. gold, silver, platinum, etc.) purchased in bulk (bullion) or in individual coins are currently excluded from coverage 

 -Purchases for .........................................silver............................purchased..............................in individual coins are currently excluded from coverage

I think if it was a big enough hit PayPal would use this.  But I very much dislike PayPal and tend to view them from an automatic negative light, so perhaps a less biased person than me would interpret this differently.  Or, someone more well versed in legalese.

[JTO]

I was burned over 10 years ago by a Dealer selling Silver Dollars by the roll.  He was selling on the come, sell then take the money and go buy the roll.  He got caught upside down by the metals run up and would not refund,  he strung me along for the 30 day protection period and then nothing.  He was well known in his community,  and I reported him to the Fed's.  The bottom line was that it was Visa that ultimately saved the day.  I never pay for anything on e-bay with cash or bank transfer unless it is under $10.

 

John