1909 V.D.B. Matte Proof? Thoughts?
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PocketArt   
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This topic is going viral to a degree ATS, and at Coin Talk.  Apparently, some chap / chump bought a 1909 V.D.B. Lincoln Cent at the "Great Southern Coins" site and he sent to PCGS, and it came back a Matte Proof!  Many skeptics- thought I'd share here for your feedback.  I'm no expert on these but I'd be highly suspicious of coin...rims just don't look true.  Thoughts?

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ebay-still-a-cherrypickers-paradise-2017.290909/

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/975964/and-people-say-you-shouldnt-buy-from-great-southern

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robec1347   
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It isn't one. Not one diagnostic appears on the coin and the rims are round.

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WoodenJefferson   
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Course we do not have the LIBERTY (get it?) to examine this coin under a loupe for well known diagnostics for the Matte Proof 1909 V.D.B. The True View images are really sharp and can be magnified to extreme proportions, yet I see nothing that makes this a slam dunk.

 

10 years ago

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/608346/1909-vdb-the-first-matte-proof-lincoln-die-diagnostics-informational-thread

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PocketArt   
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PCGS pulled the cert on coin, and it looks like their in the process of correcting error with submitter.  Good to see they are doing the right thing- hopefully the owner complies.

BTW- hello, hello, hello, echo, echo, echo....where is everyone?  Eerily quiet.  Don't even hear the crickets!

 

 

Edited by PocketArt

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t-arc   
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can anyone tell me if the owner returned the coin to pcgs?  Would you?  What right does pcgs have to request the coin be returned?

buffnixx

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MarkFeld   
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28 minutes ago, t-arc said:

can anyone tell me if the owner returned the coin to pcgs?  Would you?  What right does pcgs have to request the coin be returned?

buffnixx

My guess is that, by submitting the coin for grading, the submitter of the coin agreed to PCGS' terms and conditions. And that those terms and conditions cover such errors.

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t-arc   
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1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

My guess is that, by submitting the coin for grading, the submitter of the coin agreed to PCGS' terms and conditions. And that those terms and conditions cover such errors.

But whether or not the owner returned the coin I cannot see where there would be any legal basis for pcgs to get it back.  A lot of collectors/dealers  would have just kept it.  They could have just 

said to pcgs that they lost it or sold it.  What could pcgs do about that??

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ldhair   
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I actually felt sorry for the guy. He was told that it was not the matte proof by several folks on the internet that he did not know. I don't blame him for sending the coin to PCGS to be sure. Maybe that was wise. He had to be the most happy guy in the world when PCGS called it a matte proof.  He trusted they would get it right. It was life changing for him. The truth had to hurt.

I would frame the slab and hang it on my wall above my desk as a reminder of just how crazy this hobby can be.

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t-arc   
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here are the images of the so-called 1909vdb matte proof from GSC that really is not a proof, take a good look

s-l500.jpg

s-l500.olik.jpg

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t-arc   
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Still a pretty coin in my opinion and worthy of an MS65r&b grade.  I really do feel badly for the OP 

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A.Phillips   
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13 hours ago, t-arc said:

Still a pretty coin in my opinion and worthy of an MS65r&b grade.  I really do feel badly for the OP 

+1

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robec1347   
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21 minutes ago, K.D. Lewis said:

Do coins with finger marks grade higher than 64 now? I don't see Red on the obverse?

Yes.

Both 65BN

1909VDBms65bnTV_BlackMed.jpg

Robec_1946_MS65BN_o8r7.jpg

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robec1347   
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2 hours ago, K.D. Lewis said:

#1- attractive, #2- ???, seems generous, perhaps it is the photography

I didn't say anything about them being attractive. The question was if they gave grades higher than 64 on coins with fingerprints. I'll be the first to admit the coins aren't necessarily attractive.

 

Here is another photo of the unattractive 1946.

Robec_1946TV_MS65BN.jpg 

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t-arc   
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I think if the owner just want to keep the misguided 09 vdb cent he can.  If he is approached by pcgs to have the coin returned he can just claim he cannot find it or it is misplaced and he will contact them when and if he finds

it.  Seems to be fairly straightforward to me.  Even with the grading fees he is probably out less than 200 bucks and he has a nice souvenir of pcgs grading progress

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t-arc   
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He could also tell them he sold it to another collector for 40K

What could the do?

Nothing!

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WoodenJefferson   
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It's been pretty well established that PCGS has no real legal recourse to obtain the coin if the present owner does not surrender the mislabled 1909 VDB cent. An e-mail requesting the coin for correction or letter in the mail is the only way to contact the owner. What they do upon reciept of notification is up to them.

There will be no West or East Coast goons gonna go knocking on their door demanding the said coin or else. Forgetaboutit!

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MarkFeld   
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3 hours ago, t-arc said:

He could also tell them he sold it to another collector for 40K

What could the do?

Nothing!

It's not much, but they could cancel his membership and prevent him from submitting coins to them, directly, in the future.

Edited by MarkFeld

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grip   
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They should compensate the submitter ( some way).

Edited by grip

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PocketArt   
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I followed this discovery on Coin Talk where it was first reported by the OP.  It doesn't appear the OP had enough knowledge in Lincoln Cents, or coins,  to draw the conclusion that it wasn't a MP before many of the experienced collectors were able to communicate the discrepancies.  Based on his knowledge, and the affirmation that his coin was MP by PCGS only gave him a greater platform of authority to challenge those that questioned.  It appears his negativity towards other experienced collectors was driven by the belief that he thought other collectors were jealous of his discovery.  

Unfortunately, he only gave way to arguments once the cert was pulled...throughout this process was like watching the stages of grief.  I'm sure many of us believe we may have handled it better...but, after thinking about it, not sure how I'd react either if a $60,000 discovery was pulled away and I was left looking like a chump.   

My thoughts are that PCGS ought to give the fellow some monetary compensation.  Wouldn't be a bad PR move since so many collectors had followed this mishap.  A drop in the bucket- make it right, step up, and send this chap a check for $10,000 and move on.  Everyone is happy, and a gold star for PCGS.  Will it happen?  IDK.  Hope for good ending....

 

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K.D. Lewis   
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I was remarking (attractive) on the subjective nature of the grading service.  PCGS Official guide to coin grading; 2nd edition March 2004,  "the overall eye appeal still must be positive or the coin does not merit MS-65".  ANA grading standards said "a coin with a finger mark would not grade higher than MS/PR-64".  All I own are very old books, so perhaps the rules have loosened a little and i am uneducated, or even gradeflation.

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Matt_dac   
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Without knowing the cert #, I wonder if PCGS has corrected the database listing to protect future buyers if the current (or any future) owner elects not to return the coin for a corrected grade/slab?  

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t-arc   
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On 3/20/2017 at 2:43 PM, MarkFeld said:

It's not much, but they could cancel his membership and prevent him from submitting coins to them, directly, in the future.

Well they aint the only grading service in town, a new customer for ngc and anacs and icg and segs

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robec1347   
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PCGS doesn't need to do any more. They've delegitimized the cert number and taken it out of the database. Correct in that they can't force the owner to return the coin for the corrected designation. No other service will designate this coin a proof either. Any potential buyer would be nuts to payout 5 figures without its authenticity, which will not happen. My opinion of course.

Edited by robec1347
punctuation

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mumu   
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What would PCGS's gurantee look like if he "sold" it to a buddy for 40k and his buddy requested the guarantee?

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WoodenJefferson   
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7 hours ago, mumu said:

What would PCGS's gurantee look like if he "sold" it to a buddy for 40k and his buddy requested the guarantee?

In essence, since the coin in question was removed from the data base, it no longer exists.

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numisport   
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Not just any lawyer, a good lawyer.

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WoodenJefferson   
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On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:43 AM, numisport said:

Not just any lawyer, a good lawyer.

I'm certain there are plenty of good lawyers out there that could probably win this case, but they are not going to tackle it for say 33% of 40K  peanuts.

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mumu   
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On 5/10/2017 at 8:13 AM, WoodenJefferson said:

In essence, since the coin in question was removed from the data base, it no longer exists.

Which means the PCGS guarantee is also vanished.

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