• Announcements

    • dena

      Try the new NGC Journals!   03/22/2017

      NGC has launched a new and improved NGC Journals! Available on NGCcoin.com, the new NGC Journals improves upon the popular platform to write blogs and discuss them with other members. The new NGC Journals has an improved design that makes it significantly easier to post and read journals from any device, including smartphones and tablets. Adding images has been made much simpler, and the NGC Journals now give users the ability to create polls and "like" other entries. A popular feature of the old NGC Journals was the ability to open an entry to comments from other users. This feature has been retained and enhanced — users can now comment on the same page as the original Journal entry, creating a seamless experience. Best of all, the same login can be used to post Journals, make comments and access the other features of the NGC website. Old NGC Journals entries will be migrated to the new NGC Journals soon. In the meantime, users can make posts to the new NGC Journals. To get started, create a Journal and make an entry. Unlike the old NGC Journals, you create a single Journal and then add new entries to it. Your Journal can be customized with a cover photo, and you can choose to make it available to all users or only to the users that you select. You can also choose to receive notifications whenever people comment on one of your entries. Scroll below for helpful tips on using the new NGC Journals or go to the new NGC Journals now >   Instructions / Tips To get started, you must first create your Journal and then you can add entries to that Journal. Choose Journals from the Browse menu if you are not already on the Journals page

        Click Create a Journal

        Name your journal, add a description, add a photo, and choose if you want all users to see your journal or if you would like it available to a specific audience only. Click Continue to move on to the next step where you can add you first entry!

        Click Add Journal Entry to add a post to your journal

        Commenting on another user's Journal is easy. After selecting a journal to read, scroll to the bottom of the page where you will find the field where you may enter your comments and see the comments others have posted.

1909 V.D.B. Matte Proof? Thoughts?
1 1

23 posts in this topic

This topic is going viral to a degree ATS, and at Coin Talk.  Apparently, some chap / chump bought a 1909 V.D.B. Lincoln Cent at the "Great Southern Coins" site and he sent to PCGS, and it came back a Matte Proof!  Many skeptics- thought I'd share here for your feedback.  I'm no expert on these but I'd be highly suspicious of coin...rims just don't look true.  Thoughts?

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ebay-still-a-cherrypickers-paradise-2017.290909/

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/975964/and-people-say-you-shouldnt-buy-from-great-southern

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It isn't one. Not one diagnostic appears on the coin and the rims are round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Course we do not have the LIBERTY (get it?) to examine this coin under a loupe for well known diagnostics for the Matte Proof 1909 V.D.B. The True View images are really sharp and can be magnified to extreme proportions, yet I see nothing that makes this a slam dunk.

 

10 years ago

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/608346/1909-vdb-the-first-matte-proof-lincoln-die-diagnostics-informational-thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PCGS pulled the cert on coin, and it looks like their in the process of correcting error with submitter.  Good to see they are doing the right thing- hopefully the owner complies.

BTW- hello, hello, hello, echo, echo, echo....where is everyone?  Eerily quiet.  Don't even hear the crickets!

 

 

Edited by PocketArt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can anyone tell me if the owner returned the coin to pcgs?  Would you?  What right does pcgs have to request the coin be returned?

buffnixx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, t-arc said:

can anyone tell me if the owner returned the coin to pcgs?  Would you?  What right does pcgs have to request the coin be returned?

buffnixx

My guess is that, by submitting the coin for grading, the submitter of the coin agreed to PCGS' terms and conditions. And that those terms and conditions cover such errors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

My guess is that, by submitting the coin for grading, the submitter of the coin agreed to PCGS' terms and conditions. And that those terms and conditions cover such errors.

But whether or not the owner returned the coin I cannot see where there would be any legal basis for pcgs to get it back.  A lot of collectors/dealers  would have just kept it.  They could have just 

said to pcgs that they lost it or sold it.  What could pcgs do about that??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually felt sorry for the guy. He was told that it was not the matte proof by several folks on the internet that he did not know. I don't blame him for sending the coin to PCGS to be sure. Maybe that was wise. He had to be the most happy guy in the world when PCGS called it a matte proof.  He trusted they would get it right. It was life changing for him. The truth had to hurt.

I would frame the slab and hang it on my wall above my desk as a reminder of just how crazy this hobby can be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

here are the images of the so-called 1909vdb matte proof from GSC that really is not a proof, take a good look

s-l500.jpg

s-l500.olik.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still a pretty coin in my opinion and worthy of an MS65r&b grade.  I really do feel badly for the OP 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, t-arc said:

Still a pretty coin in my opinion and worthy of an MS65r&b grade.  I really do feel badly for the OP 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do coins with finger marks grade higher than 64 now? I don't see Red on the obverse?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, K.D. Lewis said:

Do coins with finger marks grade higher than 64 now? I don't see Red on the obverse?

Yes.

Both 65BN

1909VDBms65bnTV_BlackMed.jpg

Robec_1946_MS65BN_o8r7.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, K.D. Lewis said:

#1- attractive, #2- ???, seems generous, perhaps it is the photography

I didn't say anything about them being attractive. The question was if they gave grades higher than 64 on coins with fingerprints. I'll be the first to admit the coins aren't necessarily attractive.

 

Here is another photo of the unattractive 1946.

Robec_1946TV_MS65BN.jpg 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if the owner just want to keep the misguided 09 vdb cent he can.  If he is approached by pcgs to have the coin returned he can just claim he cannot find it or it is misplaced and he will contact them when and if he finds

it.  Seems to be fairly straightforward to me.  Even with the grading fees he is probably out less than 200 bucks and he has a nice souvenir of pcgs grading progress

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He could also tell them he sold it to another collector for 40K

What could the do?

Nothing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been pretty well established that PCGS has no real legal recourse to obtain the coin if the present owner does not surrender the mislabled 1909 VDB cent. An e-mail requesting the coin for correction or letter in the mail is the only way to contact the owner. What they do upon reciept of notification is up to them.

There will be no West or East Coast goons gonna go knocking on their door demanding the said coin or else. Forgetaboutit!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, t-arc said:

He could also tell them he sold it to another collector for 40K

What could the do?

Nothing!

It's not much, but they could cancel his membership and prevent him from submitting coins to them, directly, in the future.

Edited by MarkFeld

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They should compensate the submitter ( some way).

Edited by grip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I followed this discovery on Coin Talk where it was first reported by the OP.  It doesn't appear the OP had enough knowledge in Lincoln Cents, or coins,  to draw the conclusion that it wasn't a MP before many of the experienced collectors were able to communicate the discrepancies.  Based on his knowledge, and the affirmation that his coin was MP by PCGS only gave him a greater platform of authority to challenge those that questioned.  It appears his negativity towards other experienced collectors was driven by the belief that he thought other collectors were jealous of his discovery.  

Unfortunately, he only gave way to arguments once the cert was pulled...throughout this process was like watching the stages of grief.  I'm sure many of us believe we may have handled it better...but, after thinking about it, not sure how I'd react either if a $60,000 discovery was pulled away and I was left looking like a chump.   

My thoughts are that PCGS ought to give the fellow some monetary compensation.  Wouldn't be a bad PR move since so many collectors had followed this mishap.  A drop in the bucket- make it right, step up, and send this chap a check for $10,000 and move on.  Everyone is happy, and a gold star for PCGS.  Will it happen?  IDK.  Hope for good ending....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was remarking (attractive) on the subjective nature of the grading service.  PCGS Official guide to coin grading; 2nd edition March 2004,  "the overall eye appeal still must be positive or the coin does not merit MS-65".  ANA grading standards said "a coin with a finger mark would not grade higher than MS/PR-64".  All I own are very old books, so perhaps the rules have loosened a little and i am uneducated, or even gradeflation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without knowing the cert #, I wonder if PCGS has corrected the database listing to protect future buyers if the current (or any future) owner elects not to return the coin for a corrected grade/slab?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
1 1