Is this "CAC" thing a load of *spoon* or what? 0

[Rollo Tomassi]

1 hour ago, LINCOLNMAN said:

P.S. most of my collecting most recently is 18th century medals. More like how I used to enjoy the hobby. Beauty, rarity, no slabs, no CAC and in my series', low cost/risk. 

I think we should try to accommodate the current morass and do everything WE can to avoid any damage.

And "damage" is what I think we are seeing.  

Our chief responsibility is to OUR collections.  I think it can be done if we are the least bit intelligent and diligent in our efforts.  

 

[Numismatic, A.A.S.]

1 hour ago, Rollo Tomassi said:

I think we should try to accommodate the current morass and do everything WE can to avoid any damage.

And "damage" is what I think we are seeing.  

Our chief responsibility is to OUR collections.  I think it can be done if we are the least bit intelligent and diligent in our efforts.  

 

Yes, this, when I was dealing there were some who would ask only to see CAC and be quick to jet off as if nothing I had was worth even a look, others would sometimes say they didn't care about CAC...your previous post based on your opinions was right on...in my opinion...I think that to imagine a person who wouldn't take a serious look at a "CAL" stamped gold just because it lacked a CAC sticker is foolish on their part...yes I've admitted to paying up for them but it's not like I search for them only or the vast majority of my holdings have a CAC...it makes alot of sense when you said they need that assistance or reassurance or something...Our Chief Responsibility is to Our Collections you are right on..

[Numismatic, A.A.S.]

P.S. Sorry, Rollo, not to misquote you I meant to type that you said they need "ADVICE" by your observations...agreed. 

[Just Bob]

4 hours ago, LINCOLNMAN said:

P.S. most of my collecting most recently is 18th century medals. More like how I used to enjoy the hobby. Beauty, rarity, no slabs, no CAC and in my series', low cost/risk. 

Ditto here with Mississippi trade tokens . Except for an occasional purchase for my circulated type set, I have been buying only exonumia.

[LINCOLNMAN]

36 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Ditto here with Mississippi trade tokens . Except for an occasional purchase for my circulated type set, I have been buying only exonumia.

History there - numismatics!

[Alex in PA.]

17 hours ago, Rollo Tomassi said:

Late to the debate but have to register MY ..opinion.   My OPINION only.

I consider it to be one of the worst innovations in the "hobby."

I agree completely and wholeheartedly with those saying how brilliant the BUSINESS PLAN is/was.   Pure genius in fact.

In my OPINION, we have conferred on one man (who does no grading) the power to decide just how GOOD the grade is.   If it's in the top 2/3 of the grade per...his...opinion, then approval is granted.  If not, well then the coin will have... and in reality already HAS HAD.... an inferred negative inference as to its MARKET PRICE.

I just sold an 1848-CAL quarter eagle that had such NICE color that it brought a record price "for its grade" ....but.... I can't even count the number of queries I got asking it it had been "approved."   So that tells ME that whether or not it has been "blessed" affects ...desirability.... to BUYERS.   Rightly or wrongly, that's an observable fact.  

I base this on another observation that NEW collectors and "the public" in general want, desire, hope for, accept and NEED .....advice ... in order to make decisions.

It's not something that ...I...want to deal with.   

You may be the best "unofficial" grader on earth.  You may have more time in the arena than most collectors.  But YOUR opinion will remain only YOURS without an "outside" approval.  

So MY ....actual program has persuaded me to SELL almost every coin I have that is NOT APPROVED!   Silly?  Maybe.   But it's what I did.

My PRESENT practice is to buy whenever possible a coin ALREADY APPROVED and remove at least one possible hoop for it to jump through if I decide to no longer own it.   I also have a STRINGENT requirement that the approved piece being considered is also EYE APPEALING TO ME !!!  So, the approval alone won't dictate whether I buy a coin or not.

My ...advice... (if even solicited) is to give yourself the least grief possible in pursuit of an enjoyable "hobby" and thus keep it a valued activity.   I don't consider approval to be so important in the arena of GOLD coins.   As a former dealer I can vividly recall the competition to buy GOLD coins whenever and wherever because they ARE LIQUID.. Gold sells. Day in, day out.....gold sells easily.   To a WIDE base of buyers.   But NON gold coins appeal to a more specialized and PERSONAL ...hobbyist.  And there is where "approval" becomes a necessity to them.

I base this OPINION as I have written it on personally observed TRENDS and as in the stock market (which coins definitely are NOT) fighting a "trend" is a discouraged practice by every financial person I know.

Pan this post or applaud it; it matters not to me.  It's MY OBSERVATIONS that have formed MY actions.

Having fun with your coins should be your ultimate objective.

In MY opinion. 

 

I agree with a lot you say except.....if CAC is now the standard we purchase by what do we need the TPGs for?  Seems better if CAC buys some cheap slabs to hold the coin and their sticker and does business that way.  Be cheaper in the long run for the buyer.

[numisport]

1 hour ago, Alex in PA. said:

I agree with a lot you say except.....if CAC is now the standard we purchase by what do we need the TPGs for?  Seems better if CAC buys some cheap slabs to hold the coin and their sticker and does business that way.  Be cheaper in the long run for the buyer.

CAC mission is not to grade coins but to verify A or B but not C rated NGC or PCGS coins. In doing so they create their own sight unseen market to buy these coins. Too many times this is either forgotten or not thoroughly understood. See CAC website for details.

[Rollo Tomassi]

I've seen and understand all that the CAC website states.

They do NOT infer that the GRADE is ....WRONG.    

So all the differential in ...pricing... is just from the jillion and ten buyers who may THINK that they disagree with the ...grade.   And.... make purchase decisions on what they "think."

Me?   No thanks.    I'll go with the trend and if need be, the practical implication of it.

 

I ....started... re-thinking... a few years ago when Legend (or Laura) stated that they would no longer be dealing in non CAC approved coins.

Legend is without a doubt.... INFLUENTIAL .... in the coin community.   I try to stay ahead of the train.   

[Alex in PA.]

1 hour ago, numisport said:

CAC mission is not to grade coins but to verify A or B but not C rated NGC or PCGS coins. In doing so they create their own sight unseen market to buy these coins. Too many times this is either forgotten or not thoroughly understood. See CAC website for details.

From the CAC website:

CAC-verified.
Because Confidence in a Coin's Quality is Priceless.

Whether you're a novice or advanced collector, you know that quality is what determines the value of a rare coin.

However, within any certified coin grade, not all coins are "solid" quality coins.

Now there's an easy way to identify coins that are solid for the grade - a CAC verification sticker.

CAC was founded by leading members of the numismatic community who recognized the need for a higher level of grading.  "the need for a higher level of grading".

With CAC, prices for the solid quality coins can be untethered from the lesser quality counterparts.

If CAC gives us that 'higher level of grading' why do I need a TPG?  Why not buy some do it yourself slabs and send the coin direct to CAC?

[numisport]

9 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

From the CAC website:

CAC-verified.
Because Confidence in a Coin's Quality is Priceless.

Whether you're a novice or advanced collector, you know that quality is what determines the value of a rare coin.

However, within any certified coin grade, not all coins are "solid" quality coins.

Now there's an easy way to identify coins that are solid for the grade - a CAC verification sticker.

CAC was founded by leading members of the numismatic community who recognized the need for a higher level of grading.  "the need for a higher level of grading".

With CAC, prices for the solid quality coins can be untethered from the lesser quality counterparts.

If CAC gives us that 'higher level of grading' why do I need a TPG?  Why not buy some do it yourself slabs and send the coin direct to CAC?

Need for higher level of grading is in fact their verification process. They themselves do not grade the coin in the holder, rather they verify the quality within or above the grade. But they will offer to buy the coin sight unseen.

[numisport]

1 hour ago, Rollo Tomassi said:

Legend is without a doubt.... INFLUENTIAL .... in the coin community.   I try to stay ahead of the train.

Certainly Legend is influential within the PCGS market but that is only part of the group of exceptional coins available. Ms Sperber claims that NGC graded coins are not marketable to her clientele. Mr Albanese at CAC recognizes both NGC and PCGS coins as part of his market.

[Alex in PA.]

36 minutes ago, numisport said:

Need for higher level of grading is in fact their verification process. They themselves do not grade the coin in the holder, rather they verify the quality within or above the grade. But they will offer to buy the coin sight unseen.

What Does a CAC Sticker Mean?

The CAC GREEN Label signifies that a coin has met Certified Acceptance Corporation's stringent grading standards.

If it has met CAC's stringent grading process it receives a sticker and that indicates it is the grade, or better, that the TPG says it is.  And if it fails what happens then? 

[Rollo Tomassi]

What happens then  is you won't get a sight unseen offer.

And then you have to shoot yourself I guess.   

 

Or maybe that's what you have to do if you have an UN-beaned coin.  

Edited November 10, 2018 by Rollo Tomassi

[numisport]

18 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

What Does a CAC Sticker Mean?

The CAC GREEN Label signifies that a coin has met Certified Acceptance Corporation's stringent grading standards.

If it has met CAC's stringent grading process it receives a sticker and that indicates it is the grade, or better, that the TPG says it is.  And if it fails what happens then? 

Of course CAC has their own grading standards as we all do. I think you should call them and ask them if they will grade your coins; that way you will have a straight answer. I am a collector member at CAC and have used their services to verify my already graded NGC and PCGS coins. They do not assign grades to coins.

[Rollo Tomassi]

Believe me (and check my original post on this particular subject) I don't have a problem with people sending stuff to CAC.

In fact, if you get a bean it's my opinion that within 2  years max, you'll have the only coins salable at any price approaching reasonable.   Yes, I'm that concerned.   In fact, if you do go back to that post on Page 3, you'll see that NOW ......I ..only...  purchase CAC coins.   (they gotta be purdy though)

I will never again send one in.  I've had 1 out of maybe 10 "make it"  And they were ALL scrutinized by a very well known website dealer and a former PCGS grader.   (as well as by me with 40 years in the bizz)

However....they failed.  

And are SOLD!   

 

BUT.....  if you have graded but UNAPPROVED coins....then I suggest getting them either approved or out of your ownership.

And that's all.    Personal practice only.   

Edited November 11, 2018 by Rollo Tomassi

[numisport]

1 hour ago, Rollo Tomassi said:

BUT.....  if you have graded but UNAPPROVED coins....then I suggest getting them either approved or out of your ownership.

And that's all.    Personal practice only.   

Not a bad plan and not much to lose. However CAC doesn't verify all modern coins. I would like to see them expand to include '50 to '64 proofs as well as SMS coins. Also what about Kennedy Halves ?

[World Colonial]

7 hours ago, numisport said:

Not a bad plan and not much to lose. However CAC doesn't verify all modern coins. I would like to see them expand to include '50 to '64 proofs as well as SMS coins. Also what about Kennedy Halves ?

Does anyone know the minimum value cut-off CAC will actually make an offer for a coin?  I'm not asking whether they will sticker any coin below a certain value but whether they buy it.  As an example, CAC will sticker lower priced MS-66 Mercury dimes which might be worth $50 or somewhat more.

I have no idea but seems to me there isn't enough money in lower value coins for CAC to bother making a market in it, except on occasion. 

My guess is that the coins you listed meet the criteria I am describing; not really worth making a market for CAC.

[numisport]

There really is some high value coins in the cameo series for 1950-64. Heavy cameo wheatback cents to name just one. Also there are some SMS coins that look like proofs that are high value coins. I doubt Mr. Albanese is going to expand his parameters by suggestion but the motivation for other companies is already there. Question is will another sticker mean the same as a CAC sticker.

[World Colonial]

54 minutes ago, numisport said:

There really is some high value coins in the cameo series for 1950-64. Heavy cameo wheatback cents to name just one. Also there are some SMS coins that look like proofs that are high value coins. I doubt Mr. Albanese is going to expand his parameters by suggestion but the motivation for other companies is already there. Question is will another sticker mean the same as a CAC sticker.

Yes, but the number is not many.  Most of these coins are only worth nominal amounts.  Exceptions presumably include a few DCAM/UCAM in the higher grades, RD cents in the highest grades and generically the "top pop".

As for another sticker, only if backed with offers to buy.

Edited November 13, 2018 by World Colonial

[Just Bob]

12 hours ago, numisport said:

the motivation for other companies is already there. Question is will another sticker mean the same as a CAC sticker.

I had that same thought, as I am sure others have. Is there room for another fourth party, and how would it go about achieving market acceptance?

On a side note,.it is refreshing to actually read a CAC thread that is not just detractors and supporters battling it out.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Just Bob
Added comment, substituted more appropriate word

[World Colonial]

2 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

I had that same thought, as I am sure others have. Is there room for another fourth party, and how would it go about achieving market acceptance?

Rick Snow is accepted for IHC and Flying Eagle cents though I don't know if he "makes  a market" other than as a retail dealer.  I can see the same applying for other specialties.  Otherwise, not really without supporting bids,

[dragon]

<<< Is this "CAC" thing a load of *spoon* or what? >>>

 

In a word....yes.  

 

 

[Revenant]

There's a certain amount of inherent subjectivity in grading, which is a big part of the reason why NGC / PCGS make 3 graders look at and offer an opinion on a coin blind to the opinion of the others and look for consensus. CAC is just adding another opinion to that consensus, or not.

I can see the potential "value" in it if you're buying very high value coins, you have next to no confidence in your own grading ability or next to know knowledge about what you're collecting and you're buying the coin as some kind of "investment." I think if you're doing that there are some other, more fundamental, problems with that financial / investment plan, but that's just my 2 cents. I have never really seen my collection as an investment but I know some do and some like to encourage this.

I don't have a single CAC stickered coin in my collection. Not because I'm opposed to it but because I simply don't care, and I don't see a lot of coins in the series I collect that are stickered - probably because I don't own any coins that are valued at more than $10,000, or even $1,000.

 

[dragon]

When I see a super common low value coin like a 1940's Merc in MS64 sell for $200.00 because it has a gold sticker on it I really have to laugh, but I suppose it's really no worse than the vintage holder mania that has been around for many years now. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/18/2022 at 2:32 PM, dragon said:

When I see a super common low value coin like a 1940's Merc in MS64 sell for $200.00 because it has a gold sticker on it I really have to laugh, but I suppose it's really no worse than the vintage holder mania that has been around for many years now. 

I'm not an expert on CAC....but a gold (2-upgrades ?) sticker is VERY rare.  Not sure what that coin sells for with a Green CAC and without any CAC....but very special coins sell for very special prices. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Gold stickers seem to be more prevalent in the Mercury dime series than anything else (in my experience).  A gold CAC sticker is supposed to signify that the coin would CAC at the next grade (MS66Gold = MS67Green).  

That said, I scratch my head anytime I see a 66Gold sell more than the 67Green (or, a 66CAC sell for more than a 67).  Always just seems "weird" to me. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/10/2018 at 11:16 AM, Rollo Tomassi said:

I ....started... re-thinking... a few years ago when Legend (or Laura) stated that they would no longer be dealing in non CAC approved coins. Legend is without a doubt.... INFLUENTIAL .... in the coin community.   I try to stay ahead of the train.   

That's because Legend/Laura deals with ultra-HNW clients.  They can AFFORD to only deal in CAC coins because they don't need the business of 2nd-tier or 3rd-tier coins....and they have enough wealthy clients that will pay up for coins even if it involves huge premiums.

Legend not dealing in non-CAC coins (and I'm sure they make exceptions)....is akin to a Porsche dealership stating they will no longer service folks who earn under $40,000 a year. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/18/2022 at 2:32 PM, dragon said:

When I see a super common low value coin like a 1940's Merc in MS64 sell for $200.00 because it has a gold sticker on it I really have to laugh, but I suppose it's really no worse than the vintage holder mania that has been around for many years now. 

Every now and then you read something somewhere that sticks with you for years or even your entire lifetime.  And I remember that someone said that if you have a problem with grading inconsistencies by the TPGs...then you can't argue against CAC's presence.

Really brilliant, when you think about it.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/23/2022 at 4:36 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Gold stickers seem to be more prevalent in the Mercury dime series than anything else (in my experience).  A gold CAC sticker is supposed to signify that the coin would CAC at the next grade (MS66Gold = MS67Green).  That said, I scratch my head anytime I see a 66Gold sell more than the 67Green (or, a 66CAC sell for more than a 67).  Always just seems "weird" to me. 

Maybe it has something to do with smaller coins.  Tougher to see blemishes and imperfections, dings, etc.

Big fields on Morgans and Saints and Liberty DEs makes it tougher to get that gold CAC.

[MarkFeld]

On 6/24/2022 at 12:58 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe it has something to do with smaller coins.  Tougher to see blemishes and imperfections, dings, etc.

Big fields on Morgans and Saints and Liberty DEs makes it tougher to get that gold CAC.

I’m sure CAC can see and evaluate smaller coins, just fine.

I think it’s far more likely that the reason is common date Mercury dimes don’t have large price spreads, so there was less incentive to resubmit conservatively graded examples.