Is this "CAC" thing a load of *spoon* or what? 0

[the_Thing ®]

I don't know, just seems a way to try and jack up a coins value over its grade.

[orifdoc]

Sounds like you've already made up your mind.

[the_Thing ®]

not at all. I said "or what".

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Sounds like you've already made up your mind.

 

No, he hasn't. He is just a very straightforward straight talking fellow that does not mince words. He is becoming more involved with coins, and has stepped up his participation in the coin forums. That is a good thing. He is a face value fellow.

 

He is a very quick study.

 

I have never known him to sound like anything but himself, and that is consistent.

 

Don't put it past him to come up with a drone coin delivery system that would solve a lot, and/or drone coin review system for buyers/sellers.

 

I think I know more about Native Americans than he does. Wishful thinking on my part. I think I can probably take better pictures of the night sky than he does. Wishful thinking on my part. I think I can irritate others more than he does. That is probably true (by a whisker).

[James_OldeTowne]

I don't know, just seems a way to try and jack up a coins value over its grade.

I have never priced a coin based on the presence of a CAC sticker (or lack thereof). Many coins that do not have stickers are overpriced, too, right?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

SCOTUSCOIN

[WoodenJefferson]

Pros & cons on this subject, if your buying, they are priced too high, if your selling, the price is just about right.

 

To bean or not to bean, that is the question?

[Hack]

I have found CAC very useful in my education on collecting quality coins. It is important to know what coins would sticker and what coins would not sticker when buying coins.

 

Over the past couple of years, I have learned a lot about grading coins by reading comments from Mark Feld on this forum. I have also learned a lot about buying coins that are high end of the grade by submitting coins to CAC for the sticker.

 

The typical coin with the CAC sticker will add 10% to 15% in value and a few coins will sell for about 30% more than the same grade. The CAC sticker also adds liquidity when selling the coin.

 

CAC is not perfect as there are coins with the CAC stickers that are not high end of the grade. Buy the coin not the slab or sticker.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I don't know, just seems a way to try and jack up a coins value over its grade.

 

Or what.

 

CAC offers a highly expert opinion at a very modest price. Please note, I used the word "opinion". CAC is not always consistent and often, others disagree with their opinions. Some of those who disagree are highly expert and many of those who disagree are highly non-expert.

 

Some coins are worth submitting to CAC and others aren't.

 

Some coins bring more money with CAC stickers - sometimes much more. Other coins barely benefit from CAC stickers.

 

Many coins are more liquid with CAC stickers, even if they don't bring noticeably more money.

 

Dealers can benefit from CAC, and so can collectors. And both groups can be hurt by it if they pay too much for CAC coins or their non CAC coins bring less than they would in a CAC-less world.

 

Edited to add: Thank you, Hack.

Edited February 1, 2017 by MarkFeld

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I don't know, just seems a way to try and jack up a coins value over its grade.

 

Or what.

 

CAC offers a highly expert opinion at a very modest price. Please note, I used the word "opinion". CAC is not always consistent and often, others disagree with their opinions. Some of those who disagree are highly expert and many of those who disagree are highly non-expert.

 

Some coins are worth submitting to CAC and others aren't.

 

Some coins bring more money with CAC stickers - sometimes much more. Other coins barely benefit from CAC stickers.

 

Many coins are more liquid with CAC stickers, even if they don't bring noticeably more money.

 

Dealers can benefit from CAC, and so can collectors. And both groups can be hurt by it if they pay too much for CAC coins or their non CAC coins bring less than they would in a CAC-less world.

 

Edited to add: Thank you, Hack.

 

Logic

[the_Thing ®]

Thanks for the responses. I haven't seen any NGC coins yet with a CAC sticker. Do they just do PCGS?

[coinman_23885]

Thanks for the responses. I haven't seen any NGC coins yet with a CAC sticker. Do they just do PCGS?

 

Mark Salzberg is not going to be too happy with this comment.

[MarkFeld]

Thanks for the responses. I haven't seen any NGC coins yet with a CAC sticker. Do they just do PCGS?

 

NGC and PCGS. There are a great many holders from each company with CAC stickers.

 

I don't know where you look, but it appears that there are currently over 1000 NGC CAC coins on EBay.

[the_Thing ®]

I'm only been looking at CC Morgans as of late, and, no high end ones, so that is likely why I haven't seen any.

[orifdoc]

Well, you apparently don't mince words.... I'll give you that.

 

Mark Feld's response is probably more what you were looking for. I incorrectly assumed that your title was more of a commentary than an actual question. You wouldn't be the first to take such a position and the whole topic has generated hundreds of pages of discussion.

 

There exist coins of high quality and coins of low quality. Distinguishing them is the trick. Knowledge helps. Third-party grading helps. CAC review helps. Consensus opinion helps. Good eyesight helps. Some people simply literally cannot see the difference.

 

There is no true standard though. Coins don't actually have a correct grade. Every opinion is worth something. According to the industry/hobby and the majority of the players, some opinions are worth more than others.

 

It's also helpful to remember that great coins were great coins before the invention of our current grading system, slabs, and stickers, and if cared for, they will continue to be great coins long after our current standards have changed.

[MarkFeld]

Well, you apparently don't mince words.... I'll give you that.

 

Mark Feld's response is probably more what you were looking for. I incorrectly assumed that your title was more of a commentary than an actual question. You wouldn't be the first to take such a position and the whole topic has generated hundreds of pages of discussion.

 

There exist coins of high quality and coins of low quality. Distinguishing them is the trick. Knowledge helps. Third-party grading helps. CAC review helps. Consensus opinion helps. Good eyesight helps. Some people simply literally cannot see the difference.

 

There is no true standard though. Coins don't actually have a correct grade. Every opinion is worth something. According to the industry/hobby and the majority of the players, some opinions are worth more than others.

 

It's also helpful to remember that great coins were great coins before the invention of our current grading system, slabs, and stickers, and if cared for, they will continue to be great coins long after our current standards have changed.

 

Based on the phrasing of the original post (with "load" and whatever word was auto-edited to "spoon"), I initially thought that the question was rhetorical. It sounded slanted to me, even with the inclusion of "or what".

Edited February 2, 2017 by MarkFeld

[James_OldeTowne]

It is important to know what coins would sticker and what coins would not sticker when buying coins.

Why is it "important"? Speaking only for myself, I've enjoyed the hobby immensely for 35 years without ever giving a thought to whether or not some given coin would sticker.

[Hack]

It is important to know what coins would sticker and what coins would not sticker when buying coins.

Why is it "important"? Speaking only for myself, I've enjoyed the hobby immensely for 35 years without ever giving a thought to whether or not some given coin would sticker.

 

My comment was from a personal experience as a new collector, I did a complete mint and date set of Morgan Dollars without a buying a single CAC coin. I bought a few coins with flaws that I should not have purchased because of inexperience. I sent about 40 of what I thought were my better coins to CAC and only 30% of the coins received the sticker. After reviewing the coins that passed and failed, I was noticing a higher quality coin that had passed. Then I started buying coins with the intent to send to CAC, and my percentage of passed coins improved to over 60%. CAC has much more experience and expertise than I had and it help me buy better coins that were high end of the grade.

[GoldFinger1969]

I enjoy buying a CAC coin here-and-there and have no problem with the premiums the coins are afforded.

 

I do wonder, however, about John Albanese's statements regarding CAC and grading. First, his belief that there are clearly segmented A-B-C coins within each numerical grade -- I find that farcial. The graders themselves can't agree for sure on many/most coins up to 2 grades higher/lower, and I'm supposed to believe that some of them, including CAC, can tell which are MS-65 A's, B's, and C's ?

 

Please.......

 

Second, his whole mantra is that the TPGs got sloppy with grading, but wasn't he a founding member of NGC right at the time of the 1989-90 Bubble ?

 

I'm not blaming JA, but I think the whole A-B-C thing is ridiculous. I have no problem with CAC affirming some coins as higher/lower for the grade, but the specificity of the A-B-C trichotomy is a bit much to believe given grading standards and their variance.

 

CAC is basically grading the graders, IMO.

Edited February 2, 2017 by GoldFinger1969

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

CAC is NOT grading. CAC is making a market, and has brilliantly executed the business plan. The business model has firmly established SCOTUSCOIN.

[WoodenJefferson]

...so, when do we get a bean on top of a bean to signify that the original bean was the right bean?

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

That is in the next paragraph of the business model.

[Afterword]

I do not see why CAC's opinion is any more complicated than that - it is an opinion, and nothing more. They dictate to you what a high end coin is within a certain grade, if that is what you wish for them to do. You can put your faith in your own ability to grade coins, or let the TPGs or CAC do it for you.

 

If you lack the confidence to form your own opinion and decide for yourself, both the TPGs and CAC perform a useful serve. Both also provide some liquidity as well, due to their perceived expertise by many collectors, which is more about financial concerns than the quality of the coin.

 

[mommam17]

For me, John Albanese's opinion means a lot to me. Seeing a sticker on a coin, I have confidence it's a nice coin. If you don't know John or respect his opinion, then it would mean a lot less to another person. Also, the A B C thing has been going on with dealers for many years..

[coinman1794]

Also, the A B C thing has been going on with dealers for many years..

 

Yes, CAC has merely created a third party mechanism to separate what are, in there opinion, the A and B coins from the C coins. This is something dealers have been doing all along.

[KMAG100]

I agree with the people on the board that say it is an excellent business model. The value in the service is up to each individual person. "The checker who checks on the checker". For the most part I love the beans if I am selling, however I find them annoying when buying a coin, especially if it is a gold bean.

 

End of the day, the people with the knowledge and resources end up with the best coins and the one without the knowledge are herded to the underbelly of the industry's market to ensure and support the wealth of the people with knowledge.

Edited February 2, 2017 by kmag

[the_Thing ®]

Aren't they, in a way, saying the grade on the slab is wrong?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Also, the A B C thing has been going on with dealers for many years..

 

Yes, CAC has merely created a third party mechanism to separate what are, in there opinion, the A and B coins from the C coins. This is something dealers have been doing all along.

 

4th party.

[MarkFeld]

Aren't they, in a way, saying the grade on the slab is wrong?

 

Not necessarily. In fact, they have stated that just because they don't sticker a coin doesn't mean it's over-graded. They might think it's (in my words) a low end or ordinary example for the grade.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Aren't they, in a way, saying the grade on the slab is wrong?

 

Not necessarily. In fact, they have stated that just because they don't sticker a coin doesn't mean it's over-graded. They might think it's (in my words) a low end or ordinary example for the grade.

 

If I remember correctly, Mark, during the original formation meetings and the subsequent formation and implementation, I recall the explanation was ordinary for the grade and this was not the market CAC was making.