Identification of Ottoman Empire Kurush Coins

[nicholasb]

Hello to everybody and a Happy New Year with Health, Peace and Prosperity for all.

I am trying to identify two Ottoman Empire Kurush silver coins:

 

 

So far I have found the following information after research for each of the coins:

 

Value: 5 Kurush

Date: 1293/32

Emperor: Abdul Hamid II

Material: Silver

Diameter: 23 mm

Thickness: 1mm

 

 

Value: 20 Kurush

Date: 1255/17

Emperor: Abdul Mejid

Material: Silver

Diameter: 23 mm

Thickness: 1mm

 

 

Strangely though only golden coins of the year 1255/17 and emperor Abdul Mejid are shown in online catalog pictures, got confused and lost confidence for the information about the 5 Kurush too...

 

Any help on rarity and current values for these coins would be mostly welcome.

Thank you

[physics-fan3.14]

The first one is listed in Krause (under Turkey) as KM#737. In that condition, it is worth $4-$5.

 

The date for this is given as 1293/32 because they are referencing the date he took the throne. He ascended in 1293, and this coin was minted in the 32nd year of his reign. Thus, to convert to AD, this coin was minted in 1906

 

Your second one is KM#673, and is also worth about $5. It was minted in 1855AD

[nicholasb]

 

Physics-fan3.14,

 

Which catalog do you refer to as WORLD COINS 2001-Date 10th Edition 2016 (George S. Cuhaj, Thomas Michael, Harry Miller, Deborah McCue,Kay Sanders) mentions nothing but golden coins...

 

For ΚΜ#737 variety and values seems to be clearly described in:

 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/turkey-5-kurush-km-737-129311-12939-cuid-56549-duid-153126

 

but tha strange thing is that online prices are way above 15 euro...

 

KM#673 you mention is for 5 Kurush not for 20 as mine, totaly different coin:

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/turkey-5-kurush-km-673-125510-12559-cuid-117795-duid-301759

 

The only listing for 20 Kurush is:

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/turkey-20-kurush-x-10-1255-(1839)-cuid-146530-duid-353429

 

which is irrelevant to mine.

 

As for the condition you mention my coins only have silver natural patina wich is black and not wear.

Most similar coins in online auctions/sales describe that the black patina of silver is positive to the value of the coin and in ngc website KM#737 is way more blacked than mine...

 

Maybe there are other factors on which more experienced collectors on these coins are able to help.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

If it is the 20 Kurush, then it is KM#675 or 676. You gave the same dimensions as the first coin, so I assumed it was the same denomination (either your dimension is wrong, or your denomination is wrong). If it is the 20 Kurush, it will be worth about $15.

 

You won't find these in World Coins 2001-Date because as mentioned previously, the first one was minted in 1906 (so you'll need the 20th century guide), and the second one was minted in 1855 (so you'll need the 19th century book).

 

The NGC website you linked to is incredibly incomplete - they only list coins that they have graded (and sometimes, not even all the coins they have graded appear in the world census).

 

The value of your coins is determined by their grade. Both of those coins are circulated, and I would grade them around Fine (maybe VF, I'm not terribly familiar with these). The patina is natural and is expected for coins of this grade.

[nicholasb]

Physics-fan3.14, thank you for your try maby more experienced users on these coins have more specific information.

[physics-fan3.14]

I don't know what else you are looking for? I told you the identification, grade, and value. Is there something more that you want?

[nicholasb]

Physics-fan3.14

 

I have explained to you in another post of mine that you were interested to participate that I prefer justified and straightforward answers and you are again complicating things.

 

The dimensions of the coins are correct as written. I kindly red the information you provided and thanked you for that.

 

Do you believe that I should ask for your permission to have more discussion with other users and receive more replies to my post or end my post because you say so?

I think not.

 

Thank you

[physics-fan3.14]

I definitely hope more people will join this thread and provide any answers you are looking for. I doubt you'll get much more involvement here, as I have answered your questions, and the world forums here are deader than a doorknob. I just want to know what questions you have.

 

Fact: The 5 Kurush coin weighs 0.1605 Oz of silver. The 20 Kurush coin weighs 0.6419 oz of silver. They cannot both be 23 mm (unless one is unusually and ridiculously thick). Either one of your coins is larger than you listed in your original post, or one of your coins is not the denomination you stated. There is a simple factual error. It happens. I provided the info for both the 5 and 20 K coins.

 

You don't need my permission to continue the thread - I'm just trying to clarify facts and help you as much as possible. I don't know what other information you desire. I am not complicating things. One of the pieces of information you have provided is incorrect. Please do not take offense to that - it is your fault.

 

If you tell us what information you desire, maybe somebody else can help you.

 

As for me, I am done with this thread. Goodbye, and good luck.

[Conder101]

Since you say the dimension you gave are correct, then it is NOT a 20 Kurush it is a 5 Kurush and it is KM 673.

[nicholasb]

 

The 5 Kurush coin image does not match with the second coin. On many websites the coin is refered with an image of the same as 20 Kurush value:

 

Example:

 

http://www.anythinganywhere.com/commerce/coins/coinpics/turkey.html

 

The second coin is exactly the same with: http://www.coinfactswiki.com/wiki/Turkey_AH1255(18)_20_kurush

 

The only difference is that is 1255(17)

[Conder101]

Looks like the KM 673 matches to me

 

http://www.coinfactswiki.com/wiki/Turkey_AH_1255(10)_5_kurush_KM-673

 

And if you check the specifications of the 20 Kurush that you linked it gives the weight as 24 grams There is no way you are going to get 24 grams in a coin on 23 mm in diameter unless it is about 8 mm thick. The weight listed for the 5 Kurush I linked is 6 grams which is very believable for a 23 mm diameter coin.

[nicholasb]

 

Conder101,

 

I agree with your weight estimations but when I mentioned "exactly the same" I ment in design as it is obvious that the two coins are different, one is 17 and the other 18.

 

The coin is definitely not KM673. The circumference ring is much thicker, and not from any damage as the inner ring pattern is intact, the design distances are totaly different and the flower is totaly different too.

 

 

[Conder101]

Did you ever consider that at that time and place the dies were most likely still being made by hand? Every die will be a little different, things will be a little thicker or thinner, closer together or further apart.

 

These coins did not have denominations on them, and typically they had the same design on all denominations. They would be told apart by size and weight. Your coin has the size and weight of a 5 Kurush and the same design (within the variance of hand made dies) as KM 673. I'd say it is probably KM 673.

[nicholasb]

Dear Conder101

 

Dies were and are always" made/engraved and mostly treated by hand.There are videos you may see for yourself on the internet which show that they are made by hand from engravers/artists and relevant treatment

 

https://youtube.com/rFDsSMDeV3w

 

Even axles of ships are handled by blacksmiths via hand in metalurgy but using larger than normal blacksmithing tools.

 

Do you consider that we are not dealing with roman or ancient greece coins? Tehnicians of that age had the skill to create a die that would last some million strikes with complex exceptionaly detailed sultan's signature, toughra, small dots, stars-swords-flowers or other artistic designs, dozen of other exceptionaly small details and given such skills it is highly unlikely they had problems regulating perimeter thickness...

 

Also check from history that the detail of jewels of that age are ,even compared to modern, of unparallel detail and complexity.

 

If you go through Ottoman history you will also find out that there would be no chance of getting away with such error for a considerable amount of coins without losing an arm or even your head.

 

I would recommend that you compare closely you will notice it is different than KM673 (different flower, different distances, different perimeter. The only varieties ngc mentions for KM673 is date size which is logical.With all the other differences we go to a different die that looks very much to the 20 Kurush but thiner.

 

Your point on weight difference was very important but I suggest that we wait for a member to join who might have factual historical information rather than hypothetical scenarios or unfertile argues.

 

Thank you

 

[CyberspaceVoid]

You got a reply from two very polite and knowledgeable people. I predict you will be waiting an extremely long time before you get the answer you have obviously already decided upon.

 

 

Cheers.

[nicholasb]

Dear CyberspaceVoid

 

I would prefer sharing your opinion about the coins rather than defending others"ego's" which is normaly not your purpose of participation in the forum I believe.

 

Nobody of the two very polite and knowledgeable people you mentioned, who kindly offered what their best knowledge, mentioned that the second coin may be a variety which is possible. I have no problem waiting as there are many other people to offer/exchange thoughts and information and that is what forums is about.

 

One of the two polite people you mention tried to convince me participating in another thread eI had opened, that Austrian Mint experts in the numismatic community of Austria are stupid..

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with somebody defending his/her opinion. The problem begins when the intentions are not to discuss but to degrade others items or convince that their opinion is the one and only without any proof and that everybody should submit to that.

 

Thank you for your post.

Lets have a chat about the coins shall we?