Gold coins, OH plus CAC = crazy money

[coinman_23885]

Ooh, a CAC argument! We haven't had one of those in a while. It's refreshing to rehash this tired old subject, instead of the other tired old subjects we've argued into the ground recently!

 

Jason, you behave yourself, or I'm going to start another Carr thread.

 

 

I am DARN glad that Carr's "coins" can't be CACed. Think about how long that thread would be!

 

Mark

 

 

I would cancel my CAC submitter's account (not that CAC would care).

[phonz]

Doesn't GC have a return policy like the old Teletrade where it costs 5% to send it back. Wouldn't surprise me that buyer may pay the fee and return it.

 

Buyer's regret

 

I remember returning a $26,000 Bust dollar in A-63 and paid the $430 fee. Overgraded , so it was better than keeping it.

[MarkFeld]

Doesn't GC have a return policy like the old Teletrade where it costs 5% to send it back. Wouldn't surprise me that buyer may pay the fee and return it.

 

Buyer's regret

 

I remember returning a $26,000 Bust dollar in A-63 and paid the $430 fee. Overgraded , so it was better than keeping it.

 

My guess is that the winning bidder and the underbidder both saw the coin in hand.

[coinman_23885]

Doesn't GC have a return policy like the old Teletrade where it costs 5% to send it back. Wouldn't surprise me that buyer may pay the fee and return it.

 

Buyer's regret

 

I remember returning a $26,000 Bust dollar in A-63 and paid the $430 fee. Overgraded , so it was better than keeping it.

 

I have only had one GC return ever and it was on an inexpensive coin. I wasn't charged any fee at all. Of course, this was a few years ago and things may have changed.

[MarkFeld]

I have been given permission to post that the coin which started out as the subject of this thread - the AU53 1860-S $20 - ended up in a PCGS MS61 holder. Hopefully, this will put to rest the notion that two or more uninformed bidders bid the coin up to ridiculous levels, simply because it was accompanied by a CAC sticker. Instead, as I surmised, it appears that two or more sharp bidders were of the opinion that the coin was severely under graded and bid, accordingly.

[numisport]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

I have been given permission to post that the coin which started out as the subject of this thread - the AU53 1860-S $20 - ended up in a PCGS MS61 holder. Hopefully, this will put to rest the notion that two or more uninformed bidders bid the coin up to ridiculous levels, simply because it was accompanied by a CAC sticker. Instead, as I surmised, it appears that two or more sharp bidders were of the opinion that the coin was severely under graded and bid, accordingly.

Can we see that coin Mark ?

[MarkFeld]

5 minutes ago, numisport said:

Can we see that coin Mark ?

I don't have the coin or a photo, but spoke to someone who had seen it in the new holder.

[coinman1794]

The coin looks Like an original AU58, so if it's selling for MS60 money, that seems fair.

[Nutmeg Coin]

OK, thanks for the updates.  I spoke with a local dealer who got a group of coins to sell including a 1909-s $10 in a first (or so) generation NGC holder.  The dealer said it had a good shot at Unc., I told him that a CAC gold sticker would probably be worth more as long as it was in a top auction.   

So the coin went for thousands less than actual value, maybe it took a couple submissions to get to MS61?

HA sold some for well over $10K.

Price Guide*

GRADE	CDN COLLECTORS PRICE GUIDE	CDN	CCDN	NGC PRICE GUIDE	NGC+	PCGS PRICE GUIDE	PCGS+	COIN WORLD (COIN VALUES)	HERITAGE VALUE INDEX	NUMISMEDIA RETAIL	NUMISMEDIA CAC	NUMISMEDIA WHOLESALE
60	$9,600	$8,000	---	$9,750	---	$10,000	---	$9,500	$6,250-$7,500	$8,090	$9,400	$6,475
61	---	---	$3,600.00 (P), $3,175.00 (N)	$20,000	---	$14,000	---	---	$10,000-$12,000	$15,310	$17,800	$12,250
62	$21,300	$18,000	$4,750.00 (P), $4,750.00 (N)	$29,000	$31,000	$20,000	$21,500	$20,000	$13,500-$16,500	$19,830	$23,000	$15,250

[CaptHenway]

7 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I have been given permission to post that the coin which started out as the subject of this thread - the AU53 1860-S $20 - ended up in a PCGS MS61 holder. Hopefully, this will put to rest the notion that two or more uninformed bidders bid the coin up to ridiculous levels, simply because it was accompanied by a CAC sticker. Instead, as I surmised, it appears that two or more sharp bidders were of the opinion that the coin was severely under graded and bid, accordingly.

I can see an MS-60 for it, so we are close.

 

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Nutmeg Coin said:

OK, thanks for the updates.  I spoke with a local dealer who got a group of coins to sell including a 1909-s $10 in a first (or so) generation NGC holder.  The dealer said it had a good shot at Unc., I told him that a CAC gold sticker would probably be worth more as long as it was in a top auction.   

So the coin went for thousands less than actual value, maybe it took a couple submissions to get to MS61?

HA sold some for well over $10K.

Price Guide*

GRADE	CDN COLLECTORS PRICE GUIDE	CDN	CCDN	NGC PRICE GUIDE	NGC+	PCGS PRICE GUIDE	PCGS+	COIN WORLD (COIN VALUES)	HERITAGE VALUE INDEX	NUMISMEDIA RETAIL	NUMISMEDIA CAC	NUMISMEDIA WHOLESALE
60	$9,600	$8,000	---	$9,750	---	$10,000	---	$9,500	$6,250-$7,500	$8,090	$9,400	$6,475
61	---	---	$3,600.00 (P), $3,175.00 (N)	$20,000	---	$14,000	---	---	$10,000-$12,000	$15,310	$17,800	$12,250
62	$21,300	$18,000	$4,750.00 (P), $4,750.00 (N)	$29,000	$31,000	$20,000	$21,500	$20,000	$13,500-$16,500	$19,830	$23,000	$15,250

The coin brought $8800 in the AU53 holder and the last PCGS MS61 I know of, brought  $11,162 last August. So "thousands less than actual value" makes it sound somewhat extreme to me. I have no idea how many times it was submitted before receiving the MS61 grade.

[BillJones]

It is interesting and sad to see how many coins that used to be AUs are migrating to Mint State holders. I have just bought one myself, and the only reason why I bought it was because the coin is very hard to find in AU or Mint State. It's an 1834 crosslet 4, $5 gold piece. The coin was once in an AU-58 holder, now it's an MS-61. I probably paid too much, but the hole is now filled with a very credible coin.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, BillJones said:

It is interesting and sad to see how many coins that used to be AUs are migrating to Mint State holders. I have just bought one myself, and the only reason why I bought it was because the coin is very hard to find in AU or Mint State. It's an 1834 crosslet 4, $5 gold piece. The coin was once in an AU-58 holder, now it's an MS-61. I probably paid too much, but the hole is now filled with a very credible coin.

Tough coin!

[Nutmeg Coin]

I spoke with a dealer recently who got a better date $10 Indian in an old first generation NGC holder, AU50.  He cracked it and thinks it will go Unc., doubling or tripling in value.

You wonder what they got wrong since the ANA grading standards have been the same as far as I know since the grading services started.

[toyonakataro]

On ‎2017‎年‎3‎月‎31‎日 at 0:27 AM, MarkFeld said:

I have been given permission to post that the coin which started out as the subject of this thread - the AU53 1860-S $20 - ended up in a PCGS MS61 holder. Hopefully, this will put to rest the notion that two or more uninformed bidders bid the coin up to ridiculous levels, simply because it was accompanied by a CAC sticker. Instead, as I surmised, it appears that two or more sharp bidders were of the opinion that the coin was severely under graded and bid, accordingly.

I wonder if the coin gets a green CAC sticker as MS61 if the new owner submits ( and I believe he/she will) the coin to CAC.

[BillJones]

I have been working on the Classic Head $2.50 and $5.00 gold coin sets. During my search I have run into a number of coins in AU and Mint State holders that were once in lower grade holders. The most recent one is an 1834 Crosslet 4 $5 gold that moved from AU-58 to MS-61. My grade is in the AU-55 to 58 range for this coin. I own this piece, and I probably way over paid for it, but it is rare in the Choice AU and Mint State grades. The opportunity to acquire one with "a Mint State look" that fits in with the rest of the coins in my set does not come along often. And I've learned the hard way that auction prices are often "nuts."

There was an "AU-55" for sale at the time that I bought this piece. The dealer who had it hesitated to show it to me because as he told me, "You won't like it." When he did show it to me, I was amazed. The piece was badly scratched up and would have had hard to making EF as straight graded, if not a "details" graded, piece.

All of these migrations from the AU to Mint State grade are going down the line. Many of the AU graded coins, especially in the AU-50 grade are seriously disappointing. There was a time when you could buy AU coins that were attractive which could fit in with a set that had Mint State coins in it. My perception is that those days are drawing to a close. Grade-flation is ended that. The AU grade is being "degraded" just like the EF grade has already been "degraded."

Will there be a collector rebellion and possible price meltdown? Maybe. If lower end Mint State prices look cheap in the future, that might be why. The same thing happened years ago with the Fine and VF grades for key day coins like the 1916-D Mercury Dime. The price looked low, and when you saw the coins you knew why. What used to be VG was now VF.

[BillJones]

16 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Tough coin!

Here it is. It's nice for the variety, but there is no way this is a Mint State piece.

[coinsbygary]

If by definition MS is no sign of wear and AU is light wear with signs of MS luster in protected areas, then my question is how does a coin move from light wear to no sign of wear?

[numisport]

Yes after looking back at 60-S Double Eagle I think that could be a mint state coin. Bill that's a nice 5$ gold maybe just shy of mint state though tough to tell without coin in hand. Nice coin for sure.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

On 4/1/2017 at 9:20 AM, BillJones said:

Here it is. It's nice for the variety, but there is no way this is a Mint State piece.

That's a great coin, Bill.

Agree it looks like a solid AU58, though it is now an MS 61.

I know what I paid for my AU 58, and the prices have gone up since I bought.  So, at MS 61, it would definitely be really pricey, like no way to get into that coin for anything less than $20K. (probably a good deal more)

But you're done on that coin, it's really nice all around, so no regrets except on price.

They are exceedingly hard to come by these days, maybe because they're collected for multiple reasons.

If you're a collector of a US Gold 100 Year type set, the Crosslet 4 is the cornerstone coin to anchor the collection.

[rrantique]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 8:02 AM, mark said:

I am DARN glad that Carr's "coins" can't be CACed. Think about how long that thread would be!

 

Mark