Gold coins, OH plus CAC = crazy money

[Nutmeg Coin]

I looked at the results of this auction of OH PCGS gold coins and they went for crazy prices: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9700526

 

For example, an 1860-s $20 AU53 sold for $8800, GS MS60 money: http://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/413864

 

 

[BillJones]

I agree with you that the 1860-S double eagle went for very strong money. Heritage recently sold an AU-53, with a much nicer cheek on Ms. Liberty, for $2,820. The premiums that people are willing to pay for the opinions of one man are truly astounding.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I remember a 61-s in an OH at Teletrade and have seen many in a comparable grade that sold for around GS. The weird thing about that "euro" look on gold coins in MS60 or so is that many of them have friction so are technically circ. but get graded as Unc. because they are market acceptable.

[MarkFeld]

I agree with you that the 1860-S double eagle went for very strong money. Heritage recently sold an AU-53, with a much nicer cheek on Ms. Liberty, for $2,820. The premiums that people are willing to pay for the opinions of one man are truly astounding.

 

That coin did not sell for the price it did because of "one man". It didn't have a gold CAC sticker, so that "one man" apparently didn't like it nearly as much as at least two bidders.

[BillJones]

I agree with you that the 1860-S double eagle went for very strong money. Heritage recently sold an AU-53, with a much nicer cheek on Ms. Liberty, for $2,820. The premiums that people are willing to pay for the opinions of one man are truly astounding.

 

That coin did not sell for the price it did because of "one man". It didn't have a gold CAC sticker, so that "one man" apparently didn't like it nearly as much as at least two bidders.

 

Okay, two ultimate bidders motivated by the opinion of one man.

[MarkFeld]

I agree with you that the 1860-S double eagle went for very strong money. Heritage recently sold an AU-53, with a much nicer cheek on Ms. Liberty, for $2,820. The premiums that people are willing to pay for the opinions of one man are truly astounding.

 

That coin did not sell for the price it did because of "one man". It didn't have a gold CAC sticker, so that "one man" apparently didn't like it nearly as much as at least two bidders.

 

Okay, two ultimate bidders motivated by the opinion of one man.

 

And/or the old green holder and/or the actual COIN. You sound fixated on JA and CAC and they don't appear to be major contributors to the price of the coin in this instance.

[numisport]

Crazy money for sure and I get the fact that these Double Eagles are highly sought after. But in terms of rare they are not. Especially when you consider that 500 or so between AU 55 and 58 have been graded at the 2 TPG's. MS 60 coins IMO are not attractive coins and likely some AU 58 coins have better eye appeal.

[BillJones]

I agree with you that the 1860-S double eagle went for very strong money. Heritage recently sold an AU-53, with a much nicer cheek on Ms. Liberty, for $2,820. The premiums that people are willing to pay for the opinions of one man are truly astounding.

 

That coin did not sell for the price it did because of "one man". It didn't have a gold CAC sticker, so that "one man" apparently didn't like it nearly as much as at least two bidders.

 

Okay, two ultimate bidders motivated by the opinion of one man.

 

And/or the old green holder and/or the actual COIN. You sound fixated on JA and CAC and they don't appear to be major contributors to the price of the coin in this instance.

 

Why are you so interested in picking fights with a legacy client who buys from your employer? One would think you have a financial interest in CAC.

 

Did you bother to look the bag marks on the cheek of Ms. Liberty? The coin is certainly graded properly and therefore worthy of the sticker, but is it worth three times Gray Sheet and double the "Coin Facts" retail price guide? I don't think so.

[MarkFeld]

I agree with you that the 1860-S double eagle went for very strong money. Heritage recently sold an AU-53, with a much nicer cheek on Ms. Liberty, for $2,820. The premiums that people are willing to pay for the opinions of one man are truly astounding.

 

That coin did not sell for the price it did because of "one man". It didn't have a gold CAC sticker, so that "one man" apparently didn't like it nearly as much as at least two bidders.

 

Okay, two ultimate bidders motivated by the opinion of one man.

 

And/or the old green holder and/or the actual COIN. You sound fixated on JA and CAC and they don't appear to be major contributors to the price of the coin in this instance.

 

Why are you so interested in picking fights with a legacy client who buys from your employer? One would think you have a financial interest in CAC.

 

Did you bother to look the bag marks on the cheek of Ms. Liberty? The coin is certainly graded properly and therefore worthy of the sticker, but is it worth three times Gray Sheet and double the "Coin Facts" retail price guide? I don't think so.

 

I have no financial interest in CAC, nor am I picking fights with you. I merely have an opinion that is different from yours. Should I not express it, merely because you're a client of the company for whom I work?

 

I agree that the coin went for what appears to be way too much money. But in my mind, it doesn't make sense to attribute it solely or even largely to a green CAC sticker.

[BillJones]

I agree that the coin went for what appears to be way too much money. But in my mind, it doesn't make sense to attribute it solely or even largely to a green CAC sticker.

 

How do you explain the very high price in that case? Looking at auction results from "Coin Facts" the coin sold for far more money all of the AU-53 and 55 offerings and even more that almost all of the AU-58 graded pieces. The coin has a rough cheek that is marked up consistently with the AU-53 grade. While the reverse looks quite nice, that does not sell coin. What other reason, other than CAC sticker, would two bidders decide to carry the coin to that level?

 

Would this coin without the CAC sticker sold for that much? I don't how it could have.

[MarkFeld]

I agree that the coin went for what appears to be way too much money. But in my mind, it doesn't make sense to attribute it solely or even largely to a green CAC sticker.

 

How do you explain the very high price in that case? Looking at auction results from "Coin Facts" the coin sold for far more money all of the AU-53 and 55 offerings and even more that almost all of the AU-58 graded pieces. The coin has a rough cheek that is marked up consistently with the AU-53 grade. While the reverse looks quite nice, that does not sell coin. What other reason, other than CAC sticker, would two bidders decide to carry the coin to that level?

 

Would this coin without the CAC sticker sold for that much? I don't how it could have.

 

I can't explain the price. But my guess is that the coin looks better in hand and two sharp bidders who saw it thought the coin was severely under-graded.

 

Why would a green CAC sticker (indicating that CAC thought the coin was accurately graded) result in such a high (as in MS60+) price? If CAC had awarded a gold sticker, instead, it would have made it likely that the runaway price was largely because of the sticker. But that wasn't the case here.

[MJ]

PCGS + CAC + OGH = BINGO

 

Plus older gold is hot right now.

 

mark

[MJ]

Oh and that coin is nice! I'd rather have this then a 60 most likely

 

mark

[nk1nk]

I completely agree with Bill on this one, CAC brought the inflated price. Mark can spin his opinion any way he wants but he's just wrong on this one. A mere mortal after all.

 

Nick

[bochiman]

Why are you so interested in picking fights with a legacy client who buys from your employer? One would think you have a financial interest in CAC.

 

Did you bother to look the bag marks on the cheek of Ms. Liberty? The coin is certainly graded properly and therefore worthy of the sticker, but is it worth three times Gray Sheet and double the "Coin Facts" retail price guide? I don't think so.

 

IMHO, he's NOT picking any fight, just presenting facts. As he said, it is a green CAC, not gold, and at least 2 bidders drove the price up, not JA.

JA's sticker may have had some impact, but imho, only from the point that he is usually harder on gold and looks for to see if the gold is "original" more than the TPGSs may.

 

Tossing in "I AM A LEGACY CLIENT WHO BUYS FROM YOUR EMPLOYER" when everyone knows that Mark speaks for Mark, and not for his employer, unless he so states otherwise, is trying to publicly bully him into not voicing any opinion (that YOU may find dissenting).

 

So very very uncool to do.

 

 

Find out who bought it and who bid on it and then blame them (or, better yet, just ASK them WHY they bought it for what they did).

YOU have already stated, plenty of times I do believe, that you have paid UP for coins because YOU believe they were worth it (hard to find, original, etc). Not sure what others aren't allowed to do that without someone complaining about a sticker doing it and "one man's control on the market".

Sheesh

[MarkFeld]

I completely agree with Bill on this one, CAC brought the inflated price. Mark can spin his opinion any way he wants but he's just wrong on this one. A mere mortal after all.

 

Nick

 

Nick, if you're so sure the price was due to the CAC sticker, it should be easy for you to quickly find a few other examples of CAC stickered coins selling for that type of premium. But you won't be able to. Because that premium was astronomical and nothing like the premiums that the vast majority of CAC coins bring, regardless of the type or assigned grade.

[bochiman]

I completely agree with Bill on this one, CAC brought the inflated price. Mark can spin his opinion any way he wants but he's just wrong on this one. A mere mortal after all.

 

Nick

 

I don't think it is that easy.

There are many factors that could be the reason it went for too much, not just 1.

 

1) The sticker didn't hurt the price (unless, maybe, your name is Bill Jones )

2) Old original gold seems to be hot

3) Old holder

4) It's a flippin' auction....ever know things at an auction to get out of control and bids to go way above what they "should" be?

5) We don't know the bidders...what if they LIKED the coin (oh, lordy be, someone maybe liking a coin and bidding it up)? Or, they "need it" at this time, for their collection? Or, they are someone that has more money than most of us and the amount didn't matter to them and they just don't like to lose?

 

Any combination of the above could impact the price of the coin, true?

I, for one, do NOT think it was solely on the green, not gold, sticker from CAC.

 

If it were, and I knew that for a fact, I would be scouring bourses and shops for gold coins with CAC stickers, or that I could get CAC'ed, in order to rake in the dough.

 

Matter of fact, I have a couple CAC'ed gold coins with green stickers....by the virtue of claiming it was the sticker that inflated the selling price so much, that would mean that my coins should do likewise? I wish!

[MarkFeld]

I completely agree with Bill on this one, CAC brought the inflated price. Mark can spin his opinion any way he wants but he's just wrong on this one. A mere mortal after all.

 

Nick

 

If, as you say, the coin brought that price based on the CAC sticker, why did a (higher grade) PCGS/CAC AU55 bring only $3760, just last month? Perhaps the $8800 for the AU53 example wasn't due just to the CAC sticker, after all. And to think, you talked about me spinning my opinion.

 

And ditto for the PCGS/CAC AU58 that brought $5757 in April.

[physics-fan3.14]

Ooh, a CAC argument! We haven't had one of those in a while. It's refreshing to rehash this tired old subject, instead of the other tired old subjects we've argued into the ground recently!

[MJ]

I completely agree with Bill on this one, CAC brought the inflated price. Mark can spin his opinion any way he wants but he's just wrong on this one. A mere mortal after all.

 

Nick

 

Nick, if you're so sure the price was due to the CAC sticker, it should be easy for you to quickly find a few other examples of CAC stickered coins selling for that type of premium. But you won't be able to. Because that premium was astronomical and nothing like the premiums that the vast majority of CAC coins bring, regardless of the type or assigned grade.

 

It pains me to pen this but Mark is right yet again. I'm not sure it's even debatable.

 

While its common to find gold coins with CAC at 20 to 60% premiums the coin in this thread is an outlier.

 

mark

[MarkFeld]

Ooh, a CAC argument! We haven't had one of those in a while. It's refreshing to rehash this tired old subject, instead of the other tired old subjects we've argued into the ground recently!

 

Jason, you behave yourself, or I'm going to start another Carr thread.

[MJ]

Ooh, a CAC argument! We haven't had one of those in a while. It's refreshing to rehash this tired old subject, instead of the other tired old subjects we've argued into the ground recently!

 

Got anything new to add : )

 

mark

 

 

[jom]

I find it interesting the coins brought big money with an auction company that "most of the time" doesn't have lot viewing. Sure you can lot view...I do since I live close by...but what are the chance the two bidders were able to view? If this were a regular Heritage auction I wouldn't bring this up but GC? I don't know... Maybe the sticker DID help.

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

I find it interesting the coins brought big money with an auction company that "most of the time" doesn't have lot viewing. Sure you can lot view...I do since I live close by...but what are the chance the two bidders were able to view? If this were a regular Heritage auction I wouldn't bring this up but GC? I don't know... Maybe the sticker DID help.

 

jom

 

Jom, I'll point out to you, the two examples I pointed out to Nick in an earlier post:

 

 

A (higher grade) PCGS/CAC AU55 brought (only) $3760, just last month.

 

And an even higher grade PCGS/CAC AU58 brought $5757 in April.

 

Even though we don't know what the cause was, clearly, there was a lot more than just the CAC sticker, which accounted for the AU53 bringing $8800.

[orifdoc]

Fantastic coins brought fantastic prices long before the days of slabs or stickers. Sometimes not-so-fantastic coins or coins that don't appeal to everyone also do. Big market. Millions of coins. Millions of grading events. Silly people sometimes get involved in bidding wars. Smart people also get involved in bidding wars. It's child's play to find and report really odd things that happen once in a while.

 

Anecdotes are..... well, anecdotal.

[nk1nk]

I just got off a flight from San Diego back home to Salt Lake City, I left 66 degree weather to 28 degrees here. I will concede I haven't had a chance to quickly find your examples maybe tomorrow when or if my fingers thaw out. Bill and I may be giving CAC too much credit but I think it played the bigger part of all the possible scenarios, and yeah yeah I know, find other examples.......I'm going to sit on my heater vent and reminisce about that nice so cal weather

[jom]

I find it interesting the coins brought big money with an auction company that "most of the time" doesn't have lot viewing. Sure you can lot view...I do since I live close by...but what are the chance the two bidders were able to view? If this were a regular Heritage auction I wouldn't bring this up but GC? I don't know... Maybe the sticker DID help.

 

jom

 

Jom, I'll point out to you, the two examples I pointed out to Nick in an earlier post:

 

 

A (higher grade) PCGS/CAC AU55 brought (only) $3760, just last month.

 

And an even higher grade PCGS/CAC AU58 brought $5757 in April.

 

Even though we don't know what the cause was, clearly, there was a lot more than just the CAC sticker, which accounted for the AU53 bringing $8800.

 

OK, I accept that. I just thought I'd toss that out there...whatever the case I hope the buyer DID view the coin!

 

jom

[MJ]

I just got off a flight from San Diego back home to Salt Lake City, I left 66 degree weather to 28 degrees here. I will concede I haven't had a chance to quickly find your examples maybe tomorrow when or if my fingers thaw out. Bill and I may be giving CAC too much credit but I think it played the bigger part of all the possible scenarios, and yeah yeah I know, find other examples.......I'm going to sit on my heater vent and reminisce about that nice so cal weather

 

I hear you brother. I'm on a flight as I type heading from LA to NYC. Grrrrr. Brrrrr

 

mark

[MJ]

Ooh, a CAC argument! We haven't had one of those in a while. It's refreshing to rehash this tired old subject, instead of the other tired old subjects we've argued into the ground recently!

 

Jason, you behave yourself, or I'm going to start another Carr thread.

 

Come on Jason jump in. The waters fine

 

mark

[mark]

I am DARN glad that Carr's "coins" can't be CACed. Think about how long that thread would be!

 

Mark