Will This make 70?

[Number200k]

Hello,

 

I am not a dealer - I collect for my enjoyment.

 

I am seeing grade upgrades by PCGS and NGC all over the place (PCGS more). Knowing that, does this coin have any potential to get a PF70 upgrade? If so - what is the chance with PCGS and NGC?

Any strategy on how do I go about trying to get an upgrade? If it might be fruitful, I do not mind spending the little extra $ for this process.

 

Sorry for the large image - hope it helps.

 

[coinman_23885]

Hello,

 

I am not a dealer - I collect for my enjoyment.

 

I am seeing grade upgrades by PCGS and NGC all over the place (PCGS more). Knowing that, does this coin have any potential to get a PF70 upgrade? If so - what is the chance with PCGS and NGC?

Any strategy on how do I go about trying to get an upgrade? If it might be fruitful, I do not mind spending the little extra $ for this process.

 

 

I don't mean this to be sarcastic or critical, but do you think anyone can meaningfully distinguish between a PF69 and PF70 based on images (especially small images) on a computer screen? The difference in the grade often results from pinpoint breaks in the frost that many collectors cannot even distinguish between in hand. As consistent as the services are, sometimes you wonder whether they can even tell the difference.

[Number200k]

Thanks for the reply. Sincerely as a collector, I do not care, if its 69 or 70, but want to get some inputs.

 

Please click on the image for a large version. I have taken little extra care in taking these pictures.

[coinman_23885]

Based on the new images, there appears to be residue/haze or a milk spot above the "L" in Liberty which would preclude a PF70 grade. Of course it could be an artifact in the images, and as I said, absent some obvious flaw like I described in my first sentence, it is like finding a needle in a hay stack on a computer screen. The difference could come down to a pin point break of frost or two that could be hard to distinguish from a piece of dust/debris on a monitor.

[MarkFeld]

It's impossible to grade proof coins from images. In most cases, their grades ate determined largely by hairlines, which are not apparent in pictures.

[coinsbygary]

I don't know if lower valued coins when they are graded get the same scrutiny as higher valued coins. However, if I ran a company that grades coins and I guaranteed the grade, I would be very careful assigning a 70 over a 69. This knowing that the difference between a 69 and a 70 would potentially cost me a significant sum of money.

 

That said, there an almost 10 to 1 ratio from the population reports of both major grading services of 69's to 70's. To translate that based upon the ratio, I'd say that there is a 10% or less chance of an upgrade for your coin especially knowing that it did not originally grade with the 10%. Regardless, I'd love to have your coin in my collection but because of the coin's value and my collecting priorities, I'll probably never own a proof 95-W SAE.

Gary

[nk1nk]

My first instinct would be to suggest you to save your sanity and don't waste your time and money. as others have said, you won't get very useful opinions on the grade from online photos. If you really think it's a 70 I would have a few other opinions from knowledgable collectors that can look at it in hand and if the majority agree with you than I'd probably give it a shot but at a 20k +/- increase in price it's probably going to take many submissions and a little luck. One thing that in my opinion you have going for you is that when they grade a bajillion of these at a time they probably looked at that coin for less that 5 seconds so maybe on a regrade they will take a few seconds longer and look at it. But maybe the higher value coins get a little more attention initially who knows.

[WoodenJefferson]

Are we not talking about a HUGE leap in value between a 69 vs a 70?

 

(like $17,000) Upgrades creating rarities value wise are really scrutinized...one little minute tic and it stays 69

[RWB]

Hmmmm...$70 ?

[CascadeChris]

This coin will be scrutinized for ANY little flaw due to the price jump and tpg grade guarantee. If you see ANY mark naked or under a loupe, like the two I possibly see that are on the mid and mid left of the skirt, no 70.

[numisport]

It's fine in a Pf 69 Ultra holder. Proof 70 coins are for registry sets if you so desire. Consider these thoughts (not facts): Nearly every single proof Silver Eagle minted since 1986 is nearly perfect (at least Pf 69 Ultra Cameo). Relatively large numbers could be considered Pf 70. If not mistaken 8 or 10 thousand 95 W's have already been graded Pf 69 Ultra or Deep Cameo.

If you follow my madness why would anybody ever spend that kind of money even for 69 graded 95 W's in the first place. A complete set cannot be had due to no proofs minted in 2009 I think. If you like cameo proofs there are many legitimately rare issues minted between 1950 and 1964 that sell for 1000 bucks or less. The beauty of these coins represent true coiners art.

I do own one '87 Silver Eagle in original mint package that is virtually perfect and what a beautiful coin it is ! I always consider relative rarity when I spend thousands on coins. My money tree didn't bloom this year; I may have to replant.

[coinman1794]

Hello,

 

I am not a dealer - I collect for my enjoyment.

 

I am seeing grade upgrades by PCGS and NGC all over the place (PCGS more). Knowing that, does this coin have any potential to get a PF70 upgrade? If so - what is the chance with PCGS and NGC?

Any strategy on how do I go about trying to get an upgrade? If it might be fruitful, I do not mind spending the little extra $ for this process.

 

Sorry for the large image - hope it helps.

 

 

A 70 is literally a perfect coin. If you see ANYTHING disturbing the surface, it is not a 70. My guess would be that it is a 69, being that it has already been certified as such, and its a high-value issue.

[MarkFeld]

Hello,

 

I am not a dealer - I collect for my enjoyment.

 

I am seeing grade upgrades by PCGS and NGC all over the place (PCGS more). Knowing that, does this coin have any potential to get a PF70 upgrade? If so - what is the chance with PCGS and NGC?

Any strategy on how do I go about trying to get an upgrade? If it might be fruitful, I do not mind spending the little extra $ for this process.

 

Sorry for the large image - hope it helps.

 

 

A 70 is literally a perfect coin. If you see ANYTHING disturbing the surface, it is not a 70. My guess would be that it is a 69, being that it has already been certified as such, and its a high-value issue.

 

While I very strongly doubt the coin would grade 70, the major grading companies do NOT require that a coin be literally perfect in order to obtain a grade of 70.

[Nutmeg Coin]

With the amount of money riding on upgrades, I would want a level of certainty before I sold one of those in PR69.

 

I was talking to one dealer who tried this once, it probably was worth another try.

 

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dZQAAOSwLF1X9uqS/s-l1600.jpg http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/FKAAAOSwpLNX9uqU/s-l1600.jpg

[BillJones]

If either the mark to the northwest of the "T" in "LIBERTY" or the mark above "I" in "IN" is ON THE COIN, the answer is, "No," that coin will not make PR-70. You could end up with PR-68, given the fact those areas are large.

[RWB]

"... the major grading companies do NOT require that a coin be literally perfect in order to obtain a grade of 70."

 

Which is contrary to the Prime Grading Directive.

[Nutmeg Coin]

You wonder how many submitters dip the "perfect" coins in even distilled water before sending them in as all it would take is a little residue to prevent 70.

[e1cnr]

I think the chances are slim - but being worth $10K+ more in 70 than 69, could be worth the try

 

but how would you submit it? if you crack it and it comes back a 68, you have lost $1K+ plus cost of submission

 

 

 

 

 

[coinman_23885]

You wonder how many submitters dip the "perfect" coins in even distilled water before sending them in as all it would take is a little residue to prevent 70.

 

Acetone would be my guess. It evaporates quickly with no need for a rinse since it is inert (at least under the conditions that you are likely to find your coins).

[numisport]

"... the major grading companies do NOT require that a coin be literally perfect in order to obtain a grade of 70."

 

Which is contrary to the Prime Grading Directive.

Elusive grade to logical target. Easy to find definition but hard to understand. It only means that the coin is nearly perfect but not absolutely so. Just understand that its your money. Why not just buy a proof 70 fund in your 401k and you don't really need to view your coin; but be prepared to take the loss when market standards change.

[AHFreak]

You wonder how many submitters dip the "perfect" coins in even distilled water before sending them in as all it would take is a little residue to prevent 70.

 

Acetone would be my guess. It evaporates quickly with no need for a rinse since it is inert (at least under the conditions that you are likely to find your coins).

 

I tried acetone multiple times and was never able to get it to just simply evaporate without leaving any residue. I'm not taking about nail Polish remover either, I'm talking about 100% pure acetone, brand new in the container it came in. So in my opinion, the answer isn't acetone.

[numisport]

You wonder how many submitters dip the "perfect" coins in even distilled water before sending them in as all it would take is a little residue to prevent 70.

 

Acetone would be my guess. It evaporates quickly with no need for a rinse since it is inert (at least under the conditions that you are likely to find your coins).

 

I tried acetone multiple times and was never able to get it to just simply evaporate without leaving any residue. I'm not taking about nail Polish remover either, I'm talking about 100% pure acetone, brand new in the container it came in. So in my opinion, the answer isn't acetone.

I've seen this problem too. Is it possible that the residue might be moisture (water vapor) accumulating on the surface due to environmental conditions i.e. humidity ? I'm speculating that application of the acetone might chill the coin causing moisture on surface. Sounds far fetched doesn't it.

[RWB]

RE: acetone.

 

Think about what happens when you dip a coin in a small amount of acetone or any other solvent:

Surface oils dissolve into solution. The acetone then evaporates, leaving the solute spread over the surface with little ridges created when differing amounts of acetone evaporate from adjacent areas. (I.e., "bathtub rings.")

 

Redeposit can be avoided by using a large quantity of acetone to flush the solute contaminated solvent away from the coin. "Waving" the coin through solvent or flooding the surface will help. But you must be sure the acetone is pure, otherwise you will add to the coin's surface contamination - possibly in a thin layer that will ultimately cause damage.

 

Analogy - dissolve salt in water. Let the water evaporate. The salt precipitates as fine white crystals in the same weight as originally dissolved.

[coinman_23885]

RE: acetone.

 

Think about what happens when you dip a coin in a small amount of acetone or any other solvent:

Surface oils dissolve into solution. The acetone then evaporates, leaving the solute spread over the surface with little ridges created when differing amounts of acetone evaporate from adjacent areas. (I.e., "bathtub rings.")

 

Redeposit can be avoided by using a large quantity of acetone to flush the solute contaminated solvent away from the coin. "Waving" the coin through solvent or flooding the surface will help. But you must be sure the acetone is pure, otherwise you will add to the coin's surface contamination - possibly in a thin layer that will ultimately cause damage.

 

Analogy - dissolve salt in water. Let the water evaporate. The salt precipitates as fine white crystals in the same weight as originally dissolved.

 

Also be careful of what container you use. Many types of plastic are susceptible to being dissolved by the acetone. Even some types of plastic that are more resistant can leave some residue. It is better to use glass IMHO. For coins with lots of debris/residue, multiple dips/rinses (changing the solvent) is also helpful.

[Conder101]

I'm speculating that application of the acetone might chill the coin causing moisture on surface. Sounds far fetched doesn't it.

The evaporation of the acetone DOES chill the coin slightly. Roger is correct that "waving" or swishing the coin through the acetone will help. Even more so is to do a flowing rinse with fresh acetone as the final step by pouring acetone over the coin to flush away all traces of contaminated solution. Rinsing by just dipping into a container of acetone isn't as good.

 

If you STILL can't get the acetone to evaporate without leaving a residue you will have to bite the bullet and buy reagent grade acetone. Oftentimes even the "100% pure acetone" you buy at the store will have a small amount of another chemical added to it to make it bitter keep kids from drinking it. Also event the "pure" acetone may have as much as 5% water in it. Since water and acetone are so soluble with each other the acetone will absorb water vapor right out of the air.

[messydesk]

It will not grade 70.

[coinman1794]

Hello,

 

I am not a dealer - I collect for my enjoyment.

 

I am seeing grade upgrades by PCGS and NGC all over the place (PCGS more). Knowing that, does this coin have any potential to get a PF70 upgrade? If so - what is the chance with PCGS and NGC?

Any strategy on how do I go about trying to get an upgrade? If it might be fruitful, I do not mind spending the little extra $ for this process.

 

Sorry for the large image - hope it helps.

 

 

A 70 is literally a perfect coin. If you see ANYTHING disturbing the surface, it is not a 70. My guess would be that it is a 69, being that it has already been certified as such, and its a high-value issue.

 

While I very strongly doubt the coin would grade 70, the major grading companies do NOT require that a coin be literally perfect in order to obtain a grade of 70.

 

Mark,

 

They do require the coin to be as-minted, which is what I mean by "pefect." It is allowed to have mint-made imperfections, such as strike-throughs and chips in the frosting (and for silver eagles, occasionally some minor milk spots), but it is not allowed to have any post-mint damage.

[MarkFeld]

Hello,

 

I am not a dealer - I collect for my enjoyment.

 

I am seeing grade upgrades by PCGS and NGC all over the place (PCGS more). Knowing that, does this coin have any potential to get a PF70 upgrade? If so - what is the chance with PCGS and NGC?

Any strategy on how do I go about trying to get an upgrade? If it might be fruitful, I do not mind spending the little extra $ for this process.

 

Sorry for the large image - hope it helps.

 

 

A 70 is literally a perfect coin. If you see ANYTHING disturbing the surface, it is not a 70. My guess would be that it is a 69, being that it has already been certified as such, and its a high-value issue.

 

While I very strongly doubt the coin would grade 70, the major grading companies do NOT require that a coin be literally perfect in order to obtain a grade of 70.

 

Mark,

 

They do require the coin to be as-minted, which is what I mean by "pefect." It is allowed to have mint-made imperfections, such as strike-throughs and chips in the frosting (and for silver eagles, occasionally some minor milk spots), but it is not allowed to have any post-mint damage.

 

Not based on what appears on their website:

 

"What is a 70?

NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification."

 

That wording would allow for post production imperfections which can't be seen at 5X magnification, but which can be seen under greater magnification.

 

That aside, requiring that a coin be "literally perfect" can be a far cry from allowing "mint-made imperfections, such as strike-throughs and chips in the frosting (and for silver eagles, occasionally some minor milk spots)".

 

 

[coinman1794]

Hello,

 

I am not a dealer - I collect for my enjoyment.

 

I am seeing grade upgrades by PCGS and NGC all over the place (PCGS more). Knowing that, does this coin have any potential to get a PF70 upgrade? If so - what is the chance with PCGS and NGC?

Any strategy on how do I go about trying to get an upgrade? If it might be fruitful, I do not mind spending the little extra $ for this process.

 

Sorry for the large image - hope it helps.

 

 

A 70 is literally a perfect coin. If you see ANYTHING disturbing the surface, it is not a 70. My guess would be that it is a 69, being that it has already been certified as such, and its a high-value issue.

 

While I very strongly doubt the coin would grade 70, the major grading companies do NOT require that a coin be literally perfect in order to obtain a grade of 70.

 

Mark,

 

They do require the coin to be as-minted, which is what I mean by "pefect." It is allowed to have mint-made imperfections, such as strike-throughs and chips in the frosting (and for silver eagles, occasionally some minor milk spots), but it is not allowed to have any post-mint damage.

 

Not based on what appears on their website:

 

"What is a 70?

NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification."

 

That wording would allow for post production imperfections which can't be seen at 5X magnification, but which can be seen under greater magnification.

 

That aside, requiring that a coin be "literally perfect" can be a far cry from allowing "mint-made imperfections, such as strike-throughs and chips in the frosting (and for silver eagles, occasionally some minor milk spots)".

 

 

Yes, you have to establish a baseline; without one, people would be performing micro-grading with 10x loops, or pointing out flaws with microscopes and such. My comments are within the context of normal grading practices. Most grading is done without any magnification, so NGC's standard of perfect under 5x magnification for 70s is a strong standard.

 

Again, a perfect coin can have mint-made imperfections.

 

[MarkFeld]

Hello,

 

I am not a dealer - I collect for my enjoyment.

 

I am seeing grade upgrades by PCGS and NGC all over the place (PCGS more). Knowing that, does this coin have any potential to get a PF70 upgrade? If so - what is the chance with PCGS and NGC?

Any strategy on how do I go about trying to get an upgrade? If it might be fruitful, I do not mind spending the little extra $ for this process.

 

Sorry for the large image - hope it helps.

 

 

A 70 is literally a perfect coin. If you see ANYTHING disturbing the surface, it is not a 70. My guess would be that it is a 69, being that it has already been certified as such, and its a high-value issue.

 

While I very strongly doubt the coin would grade 70, the major grading companies do NOT require that a coin be literally perfect in order to obtain a grade of 70.

 

Mark,

 

They do require the coin to be as-minted, which is what I mean by "pefect." It is allowed to have mint-made imperfections, such as strike-throughs and chips in the frosting (and for silver eagles, occasionally some minor milk spots), but it is not allowed to have any post-mint damage.

 

Not based on what appears on their website:

 

"What is a 70?

NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification."

 

That wording would allow for post production imperfections which can't be seen at 5X magnification, but which can be seen under greater magnification.

 

That aside, requiring that a coin be "literally perfect" can be a far cry from allowing "mint-made imperfections, such as strike-throughs and chips in the frosting (and for silver eagles, occasionally some minor milk spots)".

 

 

Yes, you have to establish a baseline; without one, people would be performing micro-grading with 10x loops, or pointing out flaws with microscopes and such. My comments are within the context of normal grading practices. Most grading is done without any magnification, so NGC's standard of perfect under 5x magnification for 70s is a strong standard.

 

Again, a perfect coin can have mint-made imperfections.

 

Most grading might be done without magnification, but when looking at coins for a potential grade of 70, a good many collectors use magnification greater than 5X, sometimes including microscopes.

 

You stated that "a perfect coin can have mint-made imperfections". A "perfect coin" cannot have mint-made imperfections. On the other hand, a coin that meets a grading company's published standards for the grade of 70, can.

 

If you think I'm being nit picky, so be it, but I feel that the distinction is an important one.