NGC graded coins ONLY in Registry Sets (US and World) 3 3

[Walkerfan]

This thread keeps getting bumped, so my hand is being forced to speak more of my mind once again.

I have been an NGC proponent from the very beginning.  My best coins are in NGC slabs and they are graded very accurately.  I have always bought the coin and not the holder.  What I collect is so rare that it requires the resources of both major grading services for me to properly put together a good quality set.  I started my registry set in 2005 and have been working on it ever since.  I am 97% complete with only two coins left.  Five of my last coins that I acquired were after the decision to no longer include PCGS coins, so I could not add them to my set.  So instead of 97% complete; I am only 89% complete according to NGC.  That is extremely disappointing, even though I know it is not true.

I started here long ago and made many friends here on the chat boards.  I  never even thought about venturing across the street, until years later, as I was more than happy here. I have used NGC grading and conservation services and have found them both to be equal, if not far superior to PCGS, even if the majority of the market makers don't feel this way.  I also like the look of the NGC slab better than PCGS's slab.  But now, after all these years, I can't complete my set with the best coins from both services.  How can you tell me this is a good decision?  This has to be hurting NGC's bottom line, because sooo many people have dropped out of participation on the Registries and the chat boards, now, and are angry and more and more are buying PCGS coins instead.  That is not conjecture... that is a fact, as I have talked to literally about a hundred collectors who have told me they feel this way. 

And don't tell me that I can register my coins in the Custom sets.  It's not the same.  There's no organization, there's no ranking and, unless you are really looking for something specific, it all gets lost in cyberspace and nobody actually sees it. 

Even if NGC would give me zero points for my newer PCGS coins; I would be happy, because then I could at least complete my set and showcase it here. 

Please reconsider NGC.  You are better than that and I feel it will be a much better financial decision for you. 

As for CAC...well, they don't bother me, at all, because I know what I'm looking for and I know how to grade, so if I can buy a GOOD non CAC coin for less money, then all the better for me.  And, if I do happen to see nicely graded CAC coins; I will pick them up, if they are not priced to the moon.  Most of my set was acquired before CAC was even in existence, anyway, so many of my coins would sticker today, if submitted. 

Regardless of what happens; I will always love NGC and will always be loyal to them and support them.

Respectfully submitted,

WF

Edited June 8 by Walkerfan

[MAULEMALL]

On 6/6/2019 at 8:08 PM, BillJones said:

Drink you Kool Aid and go away. I understand the CAC model, and you do not. It is marketing with a grading accuracy component. Read their ads in “The Coin Dealer Newsletter,” and you will see that

As for why I retired as a dealer was because I got old; my wife and I are financially secure; and she wanted me to retire. If you write any more fiction about my personal life, I will not respond.

If you want to talk about collecting, history or economics, I will respond. If you attack me because I do not agree with you about CAC, I will ignore you. 

Bill I am just happy to see that he is allowing you to have an opinion.

[numisport]

Okay I wont start my own stickering service because I like to feel welcome here.

[BillJones]

On 6/6/2019 at 7:30 PM, Coinbuf said:

 

Edited June 9 by BillJones
Doubled po

[MarkFeld]

Deleted.

Edited June 9 by MarkFeld

[BillJones]

I agree with @Walkerfanwhen it comes to NGC losing business. When I got toward the end of my Classic Head $2.50 set, I needed two coins. In the old days would have been very open to buying NGC coins to fill those slots, but since the other coins were PCGS, I decided to look for only their product to fill those slots. At least I could display my complete set somewhere when I got done. I passed on an 1839-C Quarter Eagle because it was in an NGC holder

Today the set is on the PCGS registry, which not as good as the. NGC software for showing sets, IMO. It is in second place behind Hanson who seems to have almost unlimited resources. According to PCGS, it’s rated among the top five of all time. I take that with a grain of salt because of the modern grading issues. 

 I won’t be catching Hanson, but at least I can display the whole set somewhere. I compiled the Classic $5 set too, but it is NGC and PCGS graded and cannot be shown anywhere in its entirety despite the fact that there are some condition census coins in it. This “NGC only” decision did not help the hobby, and it, on balance, it has not helped NGC.

Edited June 9 by BillJones

[BillJones]

8 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

You already posted that (and an additional paragraph) to this thread this past Thursday. Did you, by chance, mean to post something else?

I am on a hotel server, and it’s acting odd. I had no intention to post this. Perhaps you with withdraw your post so that I can withdraw mine.

[MarkFeld]

7 minutes ago, BillJones said:

I am on a hotel server, and it’s acting odd. I had no intention to post this. Perhaps you with withdraw your post so that I can withdraw mine.

Done.

[coinman_23885]

I think the decision has hurt the market for NGC registry coins based on my experiences.  In fairness, there are a number of confounding variables at play including a choppy (at best) larger market.  Some dealers won't even take NGC coins on consignment anymore. 

[coinman_23885]

I've also noticed a lot of NGC star coins being cracked or crossed over to NGC as evident from sales listings with the old NGC labels.  I have crossed several over myself.  It is anecdotal and hardly a sample size with any statistical power, but still an interesting observation. 

[Mohawk]

17 minutes ago, coinman_23885 said:

I think the decision has hurt the market for NGC registry coins based on my experiences.  In fairness, there are a number of confounding variables at play including a choppy (at best) larger market.  Some dealers won't even take NGC coins on consignment anymore. 

Really?  I'm quite surprised to hear that.  I sell NGC graded coins all the time and I do rather well with them.  For me, it's PCGS graded stuff that can be a pain in the butt.  But I sell U.S. Moderns....maybe it's different with Classic U.S. material.  But even with that, all of the dealers I know will gladly take both NGC and PCGS with no problem, with U.S. stuff anyway.  World is different......NGC is strongly preferred with non-U.S. coins.  It could just be the preferences of the dealers you know and do business with.....kind of like me.  I prefer not to deal in PCGS coins if I can help it, but I will if the buy price is right and I can make a little money on it.  As for my own personal collecting, I collect raw Roman coins now so none of this matters to me there.

[leeg]

NGC offered both NGC and PCGS coins in their Registry for a long time. PCGS never has.

I thought it inevitable that NGC would eventually make this change.

My only set's are in the NGC Registry.

[Star City Homer]

I can think of one dealer specifically that has made a great deal of noise beating the PCGS is the "ONLY" way to collect and it darn well better have a "CAC" sticker.  ANYthing else is inferior and clearly not good enough.  . 

Basically picking a segment of the market and packaging it a certain way and yelling from the rooftops it's their way or the highway (ie good enough vs. second rate).  Honestly drives me nuts.  Yes the material is gorgeous and high end, but guess what, no one gets to pick for me what/how/the level/the material I want to collect...and no, you don't get to tell me what is the 'right' way to enjoy MY HOBBY.

Honestly it feels slimy and reminds me of a slick talking annuities or whole life salesman trying to tell me that only he knows how to manage my money.  Um no, no one cares as much about my money as me and yes the returns will be great, but the great returns are those going into your pocket not mine.

Don't get me wrong, I love my PCGS coins, I love my NGC coins, I love my ANACs coins (and I even have a SEGS or ICG running around too).  What ties it all together are the COINS.  And my registry game is NGC as it suits my collection.

I've said it once and I'll say it again.  It makes SENSE for NGC to run an NGC only registry.  And the out of proportion ire if not outright fury I've seen directed at NGC is irritating.  Lets say company A sells puppies.  Company B sells puppies and kittens.  People see room for both companies.  But when company B decides to focus only on kittens suddenly there is outrage they 'only' sell kittens now.  Puppies are still available.  Kittens are still available.  Why should only one company be in trouble for being exclusive?  Shouldn't company A been feeling the same heat?  It's so odd.  

And adopt from shelters/rescues/reputable breeders, spay and neuter.  Don't buy REAL puppies and kittens from stores.  This was just an example.  Shoot, go get an adult greyhound (or other dog and after doing your homework) or an adult cat.  Who needs puppies and kittens anyway...your rugs will thank you. 

[coinman_23885]

On 6/18/2019 at 12:04 AM, Mohawk said:

 Really?  I'm quite surprised to hear that.  I sell NGC graded coins all the time and I do rather well with them.  For me, it's PCGS graded stuff that can be a pain in the butt.  But I sell U.S. Moderns....maybe it's different with Classic U.S. material.  But even with that, all of the dealers I know will gladly take both NGC and PCGS with no problem, with U.S. stuff anyway.  World is different......NGC is strongly preferred with non-U.S. coins.  It could just be the preferences of the dealers you know and do business with.....kind of like me.  I prefer not to deal in PCGS coins if I can help it, but I will if the buy price is right and I can make a little money on it.  As for my own personal collecting, I collect raw Roman coins now so none of this matters to me there.

Unfortunately I'm not joking.  I wish I was.  The plastic obsession in this hobby is nutty to me.

[Mohawk]

10 hours ago, coinman_23885 said:

Unfortunately I'm not joking.  I wish I was.  The plastic obsession in this hobby is nutty to me.

Agreed 100% on all points.  Sadly, some people seem to be more plastic collectors than coin collectors now.

Edited June 19 by Mohawk

[Conder101]

Unfortunately I think a lot of people have become plastic collectors.  (And I don't mean people like myself that actually collect the slabs for what they are.)

[Mohawk]

5 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

Unfortunately I think a lot of people have become plastic collectors.  (And I don't mean people like myself that actually collect the slabs for what they are.)

Conder, how you collect plastic is actually really cool.....you're like a slab archaeologist and archivist.  I dig that.  But how these other people do it, by just buying numbers and TPG services instead of coins is a real problem.  It's the kind of thing that I feel is really starting to hurt the hobby in a lot of ways.  People who are just buying the plastic likely aren't learning to evaluate and grade coins for themselves.  Many good coins are likely being passed over by people because they're not in the right plastic......whatever happened to buy the coin and not the holder?  Also, this plastic buying could hurt the TPGs in the long run if enough collectors get fed up and just start collecting raw coins again.  I've seen that backlash starting to happen also. 

Edited June 19 by Mohawk

[Coin Cave]

When I started my registry sets, the NGC only coin rule, had already gone into effect.  I had many coins in all types of plastic.  Mostly, NGC and PCGS.  I have two registry sets that I concentrate on the most.  One here on NGC and one at PCGS.  Most likely I won't finish the PCGS 7070 type set.  One of the Seated Liberty quarter slots I need to fill, in PCGS plastic, I already own in NGC plastic.  I didn't get the coin in a back alley deal.  It cost some money and dumping more money to get it in another plastic holder is out of the question.  Plus I like the quarter and the NGC plastic.  I have other examples like that in my collection.  I am sure others have faced the same dilemma.  That is one problem, in building a registry set, when you want to buy the coin and not the holder.

The set I am building at NGC I own duplicate coins.  As in, I have the same coin in NGC plastic as I do in PCGS plastic.  The coins in my NGC registry set are common coins.  The duplicates came about because it was cheaper to buy another graded coin than cross to another service.  So I have two coins of some dates and mints.  After experiencing these two problems with registry set building the newness wore off quick.  I can understand the frustration if someone had built a collection on hunting the best coin for that registry set slot only to have it taken away.  Although, I can't find fault with either NGC or PCGS wanting only their plastic in the registry sets to rep their brand.  My solution?  To keep collecting the coins I like in whatever plastic or raw that floats my boat.  

While, I like to compete with the next guy, the registry for me was more of a fun thing.  The set I am working on here is 340 coins large.  I can still see remnants of some great sets prior to the NGC only sets.  Those sets far surpass what I have amassed in mine.  I still enjoy building the set, but, it would be a lot more fun if all the participants were still there.  I only have 20% of my set complete, yet, it is in the TOP20 of about 160 participants.  When I add a coin I just leap over folks that are no longer participating.  Yet, those same people had some awesome collections.  I just wanted to say thanks for letting little old me slide into the TOP20.  It won't take much now to capture one of those little blue ribbons. 

 

 

[LINCOLNMAN]

I've said before that this looks like a poor business decision, although only NGC knows whether submissions and cross-overs have improved. I would bet the opposite among classic US coins. A shame really because I always thought that NGC was the better brand simply because of the attractiveness and solid feel of the holders as well as the tie-in with the ANA. I still buy NGC for more common gold because of the look, and will cross a damaged PCGS holder to NGC scratch-resistant, but otherwise don't play the cross-over game. Reminds me a bit of the Mac vs. PC market some years back. Tech people often told me that Mac was superior, but it didn't matter. 

[numisport]

I haven't been involved in Registry sets for a while although I still have many of my coins. A trip to the registry showed PCGS coins still there with points and ranking. So I found out that if I go to Collectors Society I can see how my coins would rank without PCGS corruption. Of course I own PCGS coins too but there are some glaring examples as to why registries should be limited or restricted. Look at silver proof Ikes; its a small 5 coin set and you would find top ranking set with all PCGS Pf 70 Deep Cameo coins. But likely the finer known coins are in NGC Pf 69 Star Ultra Cameo holders ! NGC hasn't graded Pf 70 coins in most of those slots. Why do you think that is ?

[Mohawk]

13 hours ago, numisport said:

I haven't been involved in Registry sets for a while although I still have many of my coins. A trip to the registry showed PCGS coins still there with points and ranking. So I found out that if I go to Collectors Society I can see how my coins would rank without PCGS corruption. Of course I own PCGS coins too but there are some glaring examples as to why registries should be limited or restricted. Look at silver proof Ikes; its a small 5 coin set and you would find top ranking set with all PCGS Pf 70 Deep Cameo coins. But likely the finer known coins are in NGC Pf 69 Star Ultra Cameo holders ! NGC hasn't graded Pf 70 coins in most of those slots. Why do you think that is ?

All points I've thought of in the past, numisport.  And I agree with you on them.  I think NGC made the right call for a lot of reasons.  But, that said, I myself am no longer an active Registry participant.  I see no reason to slab my ancients, which are my main pursuit now.  They've survived almost two millennia without being encapsulated, so why mess with them?  Also, my coins aren't exactly rare......one empress I collect (Faustina the Younger) may actually be the single most common empress to find coins from and the other (Lucilla) is less common, but still in the very common category.  I'm going more for beauty and a great story these days than rarity  

Edited June 24 by Mohawk

[Mohawk]

On 6/19/2019 at 10:24 PM, Coin Cave said:

When I started my registry sets, the NGC only coin rule, had already gone into effect.  I had many coins in all types of plastic.  Mostly, NGC and PCGS.  I have two registry sets that I concentrate on the most.  One here on NGC and one at PCGS.  Most likely I won't finish the PCGS 7070 type set.  One of the Seated Liberty quarter slots I need to fill, in PCGS plastic, I already own in NGC plastic.  I didn't get the coin in a back alley deal.  It cost some money and dumping more money to get it in another plastic holder is out of the question.  Plus I like the quarter and the NGC plastic.  I have other examples like that in my collection.  I am sure others have faced the same dilemma.  That is one problem, in building a registry set, when you want to buy the coin and not the holder.

The set I am building at NGC I own duplicate coins.  As in, I have the same coin in NGC plastic as I do in PCGS plastic.  The coins in my NGC registry set are common coins.  The duplicates came about because it was cheaper to buy another graded coin than cross to another service.  So I have two coins of some dates and mints.  After experiencing these two problems with registry set building the newness wore off quick.  I can understand the frustration if someone had built a collection on hunting the best coin for that registry set slot only to have it taken away.  Although, I can't find fault with either NGC or PCGS wanting only their plastic in the registry sets to rep their brand.  My solution?  To keep collecting the coins I like in whatever plastic or raw that floats my boat.  

While, I like to compete with the next guy, the registry for me was more of a fun thing.  The set I am working on here is 340 coins large.  I can still see remnants of some great sets prior to the NGC only sets.  Those sets far surpass what I have amassed in mine.  I still enjoy building the set, but, it would be a lot more fun if all the participants were still there.  I only have 20% of my set complete, yet, it is in the TOP20 of about 160 participants.  When I add a coin I just leap over folks that are no longer participating.  Yet, those same people had some awesome collections.  I just wanted to say thanks for letting little old me slide into the TOP20.  It won't take much now to capture one of those little blue ribbons. 

 

 

I personally think you have an awesome outlook on this whole thing Coin Cave.  It sounds like you collect your coins first and because you love the coins, not necessarily because of the holder they're in and you're on the Registry because it's fun for you.  This is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun!  Sadly, I think a lot of people, particularly Competitive Registry collectors, seem to forget that.  They get so caught up in plastic collecting, Registry points and competition that they forget that they collect coins.  For me, the Registry was about one thing.....proving to myself that I could win a major award.  And I did.  Twice.  But, if I'm to be completely honest, Registry collecting lost its luster quickly once I had won that first award.  I quickly found myself wondering why I was continuing to do it.....I had reached my goal and that was good enough for me.  So I stopped and started chasing my ancients, which I love and which have so much to learn and so much variety that they will sustain me for years.  The second big win was for a set I had completed years ago aside from one big non-competitive rarity.  I know a lot of people would just keep trying to win again and again, but that's not the kind of guy I am.  I reached my goal and I was content with that.  The second award was an unexpected bonus.  I'd rather step aside gracefully and contentedly and allow others who haven't won have their shot at achieving that big goal for themselves while I move on to another chapter.  The best thing about the whole NGC thing for me (even better than the awards actually) was becoming a part of this community, and I've learned that I can be an active member here without Registry collecting.  You guys are my virtual coin club because the clubs around me.....well, they're not the greatest.  But I don't feel a void because I have you guys