NGC graded coins ONLY in Registry Sets (US and World)
3 3

262 posts in this topic

15 posts

NGC's ultimate goal is to remove the PCGS coins from their registry sets. Since about half of my coins are split between NGC and PCGS graded coins my registry sets are now obsolete. Registry sets are now of little interest to me and I will continue collecting coins based upon my personal interest rather than expand into new types of coins. I have devoted my remaining coin collecting budget to other interests. Heritage, Great Collections, and other coin auction houses you may thank NGC for the drop in interest and price of coin collecting. My wife will enjoy her new ride in her bmw z4 . happy wife happy life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
496 posts
NGC's ultimate goal is to remove the PCGS coins from their registry sets. Since about half of my coins are split between NGC and PCGS graded coins my registry sets are now obsolete. Registry sets are now of little interest to me and I will continue collecting coins based upon my personal interest rather than expand into new types of coins. I have devoted my remaining coin collecting budget to other interests. Heritage, Great Collections, and other coin auction houses you may thank NGC for the drop in interest and price of coin collecting. My wife will enjoy her new ride in her bmw z4 . happy wife happy life.

 

I think I have a decent little collection, but I admit that some of my purchases were made after checking here to see if the coin might bump me up on the NGC registry. I am not saying that was my full motivation, or even 50% of the motivation, but it played into my decision making process.

 

Oddly, I had no interest in what my purchases would do to my rankings on my 10-20 PCGS registries sets. That is because only the NGC registry allowed both company's slabs, which made it more user friendly and logical.

 

As I can't see myself limiting my purchases to just one company, this development has me re-evaluating my interests in registries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,197 posts

I'm not a big Registry player. None of my set's will make the top 50. I used it mainly as a means to keep track of my coins.

 

I deleted all my PCGS coins as soon as I read the announcement.

 

I felt using PCGS coins in an NGC Registry was an unfair advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 posts

I was using NGC as a way to keep track of all my graded coins in one place. I'm leaning towards going to PCGS for US coins and keep NGC for world coins.

 

The way PCGS scores their sets is less complicated then the dynamic NGC registry scores so you don't need to check the scores for individual coins. Here a plus grade on a coin can mean the difference of a 1000 points or only 50 while on the PCGS registry it's 0.5 unless it makes it a top pop and you get the bonus. I figure the change to PCGS will increase the number of coins in my collection quicker and for a lot less money; for example, I can settle for the MS 67 buffalo instead of trying to get a MS 67+ which costs 4 times as much. I think it will also allow me to focus on just collecting coins I like because it will be harder to get to the top on their lists so I probably won't even try or at least have it as less of a priority.

 

Additionally, I can't see crossing my PCGS coins to NGC as it will instantly loose value if it only crosses at the same grade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
810 posts

If you crossover your coins to NGC, it's really only the holder that might be worth less. The coin is still worth it's value based on it's numismatic merits; not on what PCGS groupies say it's worth. Your ideology plants you right in that hole that PCGS dug for you. Unfortunately there may be no room to grow after the holder premium is paid.

Also consider this: your coin only has a value based on what a willing buyer would pay. So unless you are selling your coins what difference does it make ? I think they show better in NGC holders IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,081 posts
Additionally, I can't see crossing my PCGS coins to NGC as it will instantly loose value if it only crosses at the same grade.

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,731 posts
If you crossover your coins to NGC, it's really only the holder that might be worth less. The coin is still worth it's value based on it's numismatic merits; not on what PCGS groupies say it's worth. Your ideology plants you right in that hole that PCGS dug for you. Unfortunately there may be no room to grow after the holder premium is paid.

Also consider this: your coin only has a value based on what a willing buyer would pay. So unless you are selling your coins what difference does it make ? I think they show better in NGC holders IMO.

 

It is not "ideology;" it's the truth. If you can find a really good NGC coin, you can buy it for less money, but when you get ready to sell it, it's still an NGC coin that generally brings lower prices than PCGS on the wholesale market.

 

If the NGC coin is an upgrade candidate, the only way to get the same or higher grade is to crack it out and submit it to PCGS as a raw coin. You have two and seven-eights strikes against you when you submit an NGC graded coin in the slab to PCGS. If you really want to go for the same grade or somthing better, you have to bite the bullet and crack it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
144 posts

I really enjoyed collecting both NGC and PCGS coins in my registry sets. Sometimes I did spend extra money to get NGC registry points, and I was never going to compete with the top sets. I do wish that NGC would reconsider their position on PCGS coins. If the real issue is the PCGS grading, simply to not give any sets with PCGS coins awards. I am sure that NGC will save labor when the PCGS coins are omitted as there will no longer be a verification process for the PCGS coins.

 

After the first of the year, I will be crossing over my NGC coins to PCGS for my active 7070 coin type registry set. I figure it will cost me about $500 to convert my set to PCGS and I still need about 40 coins to complete my type set. The one thing that I do like about the PCGS registry point system is that I am not as tempted to upgrade a coin for a few points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,728 posts
If you crossover your coins to NGC, it's really only the holder that might be worth less. The coin is still worth it's value based on it's numismatic merits; not on what PCGS groupies say it's worth. Your ideology plants you right in that hole that PCGS dug for you. Unfortunately there may be no room to grow after the holder premium is paid.

Also consider this: your coin only has a value based on what a willing buyer would pay. So unless you are selling your coins what difference does it make ? I think they show better in NGC holders IMO.

 

Whether you want to say it's the (NGC) holder or the coin that's worth less, doesn't really matter. What matters is that the combined product is worth less. And while the owner might not have plans to sell, he might still care about present and future market value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
810 posts

I deleted my most recent post because I can see that I am a small minority of a person that is a collector at heart and only buy the coin because I like it. Seems to me that if my coins are worth more in PCGS holders then they must be generic coins then right ? Actually the reason I deleted it was because I'm guilty of hijacking the original post; sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,314 posts

Would it not depend on the other factors involved in determining value whether the difference in slabs would be significant enough to matter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,728 posts
... Seems to me that if my coins are worth more in PCGS holders then they must be generic coins then right ?....

 

No, non-generic coins often have much larger PCGS price premiums than generic ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14,297 posts
... Seems to me that if my coins are worth more in PCGS holders then they must be generic coins then right ?....

 

No, non-generic coins often have much larger PCGS price premiums than generic ones.

 

 

....and they were often crossed over from NGC ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
134 posts

I wonder if the "PCGS Premium" will continue to exist. Most (if not all) of the premium is due to the fact that you had no choice if you wanted your coins in the PCGS Registry. Now, with NGC doing the same, you will have no choice if you want your coins on the NGC Registry. Just a thought, but I really believe the premium only exist because of the PCGS exclusive registry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,314 posts

I suspect it is why a lot of NGC housed coins where crossed-over to PCGS, as well. We will have to wait and see what happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,822 posts

If collectors are comparing/competing for best sets, then I see no monetary aspect at all. The "competition" is for quality, completeness and visual appeal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14,797 posts
I wonder if the "PCGS Premium" will continue to exist. Most (if not all) of the premium is due to the fact that you had no choice if you wanted your coins in the PCGS Registry. Now, with NGC doing the same, you will have no choice if you want your coins on the NGC Registry. Just a thought, but I really believe the premium only exist because of the PCGS exclusive registry.

 

Well, that is the leading theory. I suspect that it is a bunch of hype.

 

Unfortunately, the market at large believes that PCGS is worth a premium, and it is going to take quite a bit to convince it otherwise (if you look at auction results, these trends aren't necessarily as clear as prognosticators would have you believe). I don't think this decision by NGC is enough to sway the tide. PCGS will continue to sell for more, coins will still be crossed to PCGS, and the trend will continue - because PCGS was the first to be exclusive (and has been for quite some time). The market, and the hobby in general, has adapted to this status quo - and we are ok with it, for the most part. NGC collectors don't want to pay more for our coins (who does?), and PCGS collectors are content with their perceived superiority. These aren't going to change.

 

What is going to change is that the NGC loyalists - those who have stood by NGC and defended their openness and inclusiveness - are going to be not-quite-so-loyal.

 

NGC thinks that they had a dedicated fanbase like PCGS who are willing to spend more for the same product. NGC doesn't realize that their fanbase is actually collecting the coin.... not the plastic. NGC doesn't realize that they've pissed us off, and we aren't willing to support a company that just hangs us out to dry. NGC doesn't understand the mentality of their strongest supporters - people like Bill Jones who has supported them for decades because they have been willing to include the PCGS coins (a small fact, but a key insight into their philosophy as a company). This previously showed that NGC was a company for the hobbyist: buy the coin, not the holder. NGC has transitioned to the purely profit based corporation mindset. The collector doesn't matter. This is *precisely* what they are saying with this move.

 

I realize that over the last two or three decades this hobby has transitioned from a hobby into an industry. The old-timers can probably describe this more accurately. However, today, profit is the primary motivator. NGC has forgotten that this is a hobby, and it is now making decisions like it is an industry. The hobbyist (the type of person that responds on a message board) is largely unimportant compared to the industrialist (the large scale dealer who submits large amounts of moderns and generates revenues for the TPGs).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,314 posts

"NGC has forgotten that this is a hobby, and it is now making decisions like it is an industry."

 

 

 

It is an industry and a hobby. You have to pay for the coins you want, so I do not see how it could be about anything other than both collecting and money.

 

How long have dealers been around?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,871 posts
If collectors are comparing/competing for best sets, then I see no monetary aspect at all. The "competition" is for quality, completeness and visual appeal.

 

If the competition was truly for quality, completeness, and visual appeal; and not about slabs; I wouldn't have to keep turning people in for stealing the serial numbers off my inventory hm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
80 posts

Mark Saltzberg's decision that NGC will no longer accept coins graded by PCGS in their Registry is an atrocious idea---a disservice to collectors and injurious to NGC itself.

 

The switch may not mean much to collectors of modern and some foreign coins, but it will effectively wipe out active Registry participation in most, if not all, classic sets. Take the Mercury dime set for example. FB Mercs are a popular series and, when compared to other classic sets (e.g., Saints, $10 Indians, Barbers, etc.), relatively easy to complete. But, there just aren't enough NGC-graded Mercury dimes in the better dates to make completion of a high-end FB NGC set possible. For example, the 1931S is a semi-key, but hardly an impossible find. I've been collecting Mercs for 30+ years but have NEVER come across a FB 1931S in ANY grade in an NGC holder. The NGC census reports 21 in 65FB or better. PCGS, on the other hand, reports 125. Of the 21 NGC coins, many or most have been crossed and not deleted from the count. Only 4 FB NGC gems have sold in Heritage auctions from the beginning. The same may be said of most (if not all) of the other keys, semi-keys and hard dates. OK, so you get lucky and find a 1931S NGC 65FB, But, now try to find a FB '18D, '19S, '21D, '45, etc. in an NGC holder. If PCGS coins are no longer accepted in the NGC Registry, NO ONE will EVER be able to start, register and complete a collection of high-end FB Merc dimes.

 

NGC is essentially forcing collectors to choose and, if forced, the classic collector absolutely HAS to go with PCGS if he aspires to build a high end Registry set. Think that '19S, '31S, and '45 Merc. dimes are impossible?? Ha!!! They're kid's coins in the classic coin spectrum---try to find an NGC '21 or '27S MS Saint. In the final analysis, set-building (much less "competition") is dead in the NGC registry. None of the classic Registry sets can ever grow, or attract new participants---whatever spot you're in now is the spot you'll stay in forever---unless NGC grades dozens of MS coins in all of the hard dates. That can't happen, of course. Face facts, girls, collectors don't cross home-run issues---MS 1921 and 1927S Saints, 1909O and 1929 $5 Indians, 1920S and 1930S $10 Indians, etc.---from PCGS to NGC.

 

I've commented on the issue of "zombie" sets before, but it bears repeating now. Many of the top sets registered at NGC have long been sold off---the #2 and #3 Merc sets, for example, went to auction at Heritage years and years ago. Many/most of the PCGS coins in those sets are frozen for all time because the coins have been regraded and the registered cert numbers no longer exist. Look at the 20th C. classic gold sets for another example---almost none of the sets are legit because of regrades and cross-overs. NGC isn't, and shouldn't be, in the business of checking PCGS cert numbers repeatedly to see whether they're still alive. The answer isn't to refuse PCGS coins. The solution is to require set owners whose sets haven't had activity in, say, a year, to reaffirm each year that they still own the coins. Those that don't reaffirm lose their sets (and are maybe given a set grace period to restore them). Those that do affirm, keep them. It's a simple computer programming/engineering thing---owners of inactive sets get an email every year and a month to reaffirm. It's certainly not fool-proof, but it's a step in the right direction to maintain credibility in the NGC registry.

 

Then again, maybe grading junk is where the money is. Maybe NGC WANTS to be out of the classic coin business and focus on modern stuff, silver Eagles, etc. If that's the case, why not just tell us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
199 posts

Very well said Kaiser14! You have given some great examples to back up your point.One question I can’t answer is what % of classic slabbed coin collectors actively use the NGC registry. Obviously no one knows. Say it 10%. To me they have forced that 10% of the collecting populace to decide between buying from/submitting to one of the services. As the number 2 company do they really think they would get more business from this move? To me I would think more people would go to PCGS coins because of the higher apparent resale value- so it would be a net loss of business versus keeping the status quo. Sure- maybe the modern collectors who already submit to NGC will be thrilled to move up in the rankings- but really how much of a % of the market are the modern collectors? As you said maybe they want to just corner the market on Modern and World coins and let the classic collectors go to PCGS?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
80 posts

The collectors NGC is forcing out of the NGC market are those who want two things: (1) to look for and buy the best available coins within their budget, regardless of the slab and (2) to participate in a Registry. Many people who do Registry sets do it primarily to relate to other collectors. I've met several collectors from around the U.S. through my sets (and theirs). We often meet at the shows, look to each other for advice on prospective purchases, and buy, sell and trade among ourselves. It has less to do with striving to be "No. 1" than with having some fun, finding great coins, and advancing the hobby.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,081 posts
Very well said Kaiser14! You have given some great examples to back up your point.One question I can’t answer is what % of classic slabbed coin collectors actively use the NGC registry. Obviously no one knows. Say it 10%. To me they have forced that 10% of the collecting populace to decide between buying from/submitting to one of the services. As the number 2 company do they really think they would get more business from this move? To me I would think more people would go to PCGS coins because of the higher apparent resale value- so it would be a net loss of business versus keeping the status quo. Sure- maybe the modern collectors who already submit to NGC will be thrilled to move up in the rankings- but really how much of a % of the market are the modern collectors? As you said maybe they want to just corner the market on Modern and World coins and let the classic collectors go to PCGS?

 

I agree with you. I think there are more PCGS collectors that are brand loyal than NGC collectors. I may very well be wrong, but it will be interesting to see. I predict that this will hurt NGC's bottom line, and given some of the posts from people here, it may cause many of its most loyal customers to defect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,081 posts
The collectors NGC is forcing out of the NGC market are those who want two things: (1) to look for and buy the best available coins within their budget, regardless of the slab and (2) to participate in a Registry. Many people who do Registry sets do it primarily to relate to other collectors. I've met several collectors from around the U.S. through my sets (and theirs). We often meet at the shows, look to each other for advice on prospective purchases, and buy, sell and trade among ourselves. It has less to do with striving to be "No. 1" than with having some fun, finding great coins, and advancing the hobby.

 

I think collectors will still pursue NGC graded coins since I think that vast majority are coin collectors and not slab collectors. I do think the NGC Registry will wither away to a shadow of its former self, and I think NGC submissions will go down because of protest submitters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,728 posts
The collectors NGC is forcing out of the NGC market are those who want two things: (1) to look for and buy the best available coins within their budget, regardless of the slab and (2) to participate in a Registry. Many people who do Registry sets do it primarily to relate to other collectors. I've met several collectors from around the U.S. through my sets (and theirs). We often meet at the shows, look to each other for advice on prospective purchases, and buy, sell and trade among ourselves. It has less to do with striving to be "No. 1" than with having some fun, finding great coins, and advancing the hobby.

 

Collectors will still be able ro have some fun, find great coins and advance the hobby. That is, if they quit focusing so much on the change to the registry and place their efforts and energy elsewhere - like the actual coins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,731 posts

Excellent post Kaiser14! I hope that it does not get deleted the way my post was. It makes a very valid point that the NGC management does not have the integrity to acknowledge. I have run into the same problems with my Classic Head gold sets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14,297 posts
Very well said Kaiser14! You have given some great examples to back up your point.One question I can’t answer is what % of classic slabbed coin collectors actively use the NGC registry. Obviously no one knows. Say it 10%. To me they have forced that 10% of the collecting populace to decide between buying from/submitting to one of the services. As the number 2 company do they really think they would get more business from this move? To me I would think more people would go to PCGS coins because of the higher apparent resale value- so it would be a net loss of business versus keeping the status quo. Sure- maybe the modern collectors who already submit to NGC will be thrilled to move up in the rankings- but really how much of a % of the market are the modern collectors? As you said maybe they want to just corner the market on Modern and World coins and let the classic collectors go to PCGS?

 

I agree with you. I think there are more PCGS collectors that are brand loyal than NGC collectors. I may very well be wrong, but it will be interesting to see. I predict that this will hurt NGC's bottom line, and given some of the posts from people here, it may cause many of its most loyal customers to defect.

 

I don't participate in the registry and would not know how to begin.

 

I am interested, though, on some of the focus points about the issue.

 

If registry participants move to PCGS because of the apparent resale value, then the focus is economic gain, is it not? If it was not economic gain, what would be so bad about participating in both registries? Would that not be just as enjoyable and maybe even more challenging? I can understand that NGC offered a collector advantage because it accepted PCGS and PCGS did not accept NGC, so it was a convenience of sorts. If NGC had mimicked PCGS, how many of the collectors that utilize NGC would have stayed brand loyal to NGC, and vice versa, or would they have stayed with PCGS because of the perceived economic gain?

 

I am not certain NGC will be hurt via the bottom line. What is the cost to NGC of running the registry? I also think there are many more modern and world collectors than generally assumed, and the younger generation is going to go where they are most welcome. Whether that is NGC or PCGS remains to be seen. PCGS has had a free ride in the registry at the expense of NGC. As a business, NGC is no more responsible to increasing the profit center of PCGS than PCGS is responsible for same toward NGC. I do think, based on many shows I have attended and participated in, that the world collecting community is quite prevalent, and younger collectors are very astute at "discovering" the value and fun of collecting world and modern. What we as U.S. coin collectors consider classic, in time and design and value, is a new born baby in the world of Europe and Asia and South America. The world has become much smaller and the younger generation are the rulers of communication in that world. The TPG that gets that and caters to it will be the recipient of loyal customers and a very large collector base. The amount of modern and world coin rarities is astounding. Just because what the U.S. collector believes is value and classic and rare, etc., and decides to focus only on the U.S. classic market, does not lessen the impact of the present younger generation(s) of collectors.

 

An example, only for purpose of illustrating my personal experience: Having spent a lot of time in European and Asian numismatic shops, I have always been impressed by the language abilities of the proprietors. In both venues, French and English and Spanish and Italian were spoken. The shops were quite busy whenever I was there, and there was a definite open social atmosphere and younger (18-40sh) multicultural clientele that were quite comfortable with the different numismatic interests among each other. How may coin shows in the U.S. are multilingual or multicultural, or attempt to advertise and inform multicultural communities?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 posts

Do not discount the popularity of the registry set driving up the interest in coin collecting. NGC's decision will initially hurt your auction business and the hobby as a whole. It is only a matter of time before NGC removes the PCGS coins completely from their registry set. People who have collected both PCGS and NGC coins and added them to their NGC registry sets will not look through different auction houses every week seeking upgrades or new coins for their registry sets. They will be discouraged. Most registry set players will be very hesitant and selective about what they now buy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14,297 posts
Do not discount the popularity of the registry set driving up the interest in coin collecting. NGC's decision will initially hurt your auction business and the hobby as a whole. It is only a matter of time before NGC removes the PCGS coins completely from their registry set. People who have collected both PCGS and NGC coins and added them to their NGC registry sets will not look through different auction houses every week seeking upgrades or new coins for their registry sets. They will be discouraged. Most registry set players will be very hesitant and selective about what they now buy.

 

Is it your opinion that the 'players" were not selective prior to the announcement? That seems a bit self defeating. But, as I said I don't participate in the registry, so I don't have a stake.

 

I really don't see how an auction house would be hurt to the degree you opine. Actually I think it would increase business for an auction house.

 

Full disclosure: edited to change hoe to how, and capitalize Actually, and add I after Actually.

I am an older generation member, so grammar and typing speed and eyesight diminishes.

 

Darn it, that is supposed to be auction, not action. Gosh, I am getting really :cry: old.

 

Any more mistakes found, please just blow my face off. It would be the only cure against further old ageism grammar and spelling.

Edited by Mr.Mcknowitall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
3 3