NGC graded coins ONLY in Registry Sets (US and World) 0

[numisport]

Just look at yourselves. What's wrong with just buying the coin you like no matter what holder it's in ? Many registry coins [for instance] are not really what the label says. Just try to get them reholdered. Be ready for a shock.

[BillJones]

Quote

Just look at yourselves. What's wrong with just buying the coin you like no matter what holder it's in ?

My point exactly. The NGC was superior to the PCGS registry because it accepted both NGC and PCGS coins. Now it's a myopic marketing tool that little to do with the best of anything.

[Star City Homer]

I get what you are saying, but I find it all somewhat odd that people seem so much more angry with NGC for doing this when all they are (almost) doing is exactly the same as PCGS.  

It's like if Company A kills puppies and kittens and Company B only kills puppies but announces they are going to start killing kittens now too.  And now everyone wants to boycott B for doing exactly what A has been doing all along.  

Personally, I have very much enjoyed the customer service and responsiveness from NGC.  The registries are much more in line with what/how I collect which is why I have NGC sets.  

Mostly I have world coins though and my sets date from after the PCGS coins were removed as an option, so I never felt the pain of having the rules changed.  Perhaps I'd be more angry if I'd had a mixed world set and lost half the coins in it.  Don't think I'd run ATS though.  

Keep it as a custom set which is something I think is done very well here.  Also, having seen the new registry format preview, I think it's going to look loads better (after the first couple months of angsty-ness as people adjust to the new software.  I can tell you it will make me take more photos though--really going to love it for my pride of place custom set).

[Treeman]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 2:57 PM, MarkFeld said:

 

Because, whether it's true or not, the general perception is that coins bring more in PCGS holders,

As has been stated a number of times in this thread.. Why would I cross a PCGS coin to NGC, when it's worth more in the PCGS slab?

Why? Maybe because you are a collector, rather than an investor? Maybe because you collect coins, and not plastic? Maybe because, like everyone else, you say, "buy the coin, not the holder"? Maybe you just like all your slabs to be of the same type? Maybe because you have a strong dislike for the arrogant "PCGS or nothing" attitude that has existed from day one ATS?

In any event, NGC finally had to take the same step to, hopefully, resolve the value disparity, which is almost surely the result of the PCGS only registry. They did what they had to do, and all the complaining and sour grapes won't change anything. If you decide to join the Kool Aide crowd ATS, do it. I doubt if threatening to do it will change anything. Perhaps we should forget the old advice, "buy the coin, not the plastic", and use a new one, " collect the coins, not the registries", after all, many of us were collecting coins before the registries, or grading companies, existed.

 

 

[BillJones]

As a collector I used to enjoy working with the NGC registry. I enjoyed posting the pictures and doing the write-ups for each coin. I am a collector who buys the coin and no the holder. I defended NGC ATS.

Now all of that is gone because I have buy NGC coins to go in their registry, and I refuse to do that. I still buy the coin. NGC took away a small part of my enjoyment of this hobby. You can called me childish, but I have a right to angry and fed up, and I am. When the provider fails to please the customer, the customer has a right to walk, and I'm walking.

[Nutmeg Coin]

All NGC would have had to do is require PCGS coins included in the registry to pass muster with cac, eagle eye, etc..  Their thesis of non-inclusion was that PCGS was watering down their grading, that would have been a sensible solution.   

[BillJones]

8 hours ago, Nutmeg Coin said:

All NGC would have had to do is require PCGS coins included in the registry to pass muster with cac, eagle eye, etc..  Their thesis of non-inclusion was that PCGS was watering down their grading, that would have been a sensible solution.   

I have never seen an Eagle Eye approved coin that I didn't like, but I can't say the same for CAC. I would rather leave things the way they are than to give more power to CAC.

[jtryka]

I agree to a point, it's NGC's registry and they could do what they want.  I would have preferred a middle ground solution with PCGS slabs allowed but with zero points, that way those like BillJones and I that just collect coins, could have a central place to display our collection.  I suppose that could still be done with a custom set, but that just makes us feel like second class citizens, since my bust half collection wouldn't be seen with all the other bust half sets, or Morgan dollars or whatever you collect.

[LINCOLNMAN]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 11:40 AM, BillJones said:

My point exactly. The NGC was superior to the PCGS registry because it accepted both NGC and PCGS coins. Now it's a myopic marketing tool that little to do with the best of anything.

Too late, but a compromise might have been to allow a certain percentage of PCGS or ANACS coins in the registry. When this first came up I looked at some of the registries and saw some that were comprised almost entirely of PCGS coins. Sort of like cheating, two top registry sets for the price of one. If I were running NGC, I absolutely would have done something to end that, but would have taken a higher road.

[Snowman24]

UGH - I just found out after I haven't worked with my registry set in couple years that I'll start to dive into this weekend. I found some PCGS and NGC coins for my set at my local coin show that I didn't have. I have some PCGS in my set already now to find out that NGC doesn't accept PCGS coins anymore....this was a waste of money for me ….. I guess I'm done doing registry sets unless this changes back

Its kinda like changing the rules of the game midway thru.... what a joke 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Snowman24

[BillJones]

It's a shame. The NGC registry used to be fun, but it's one more aspect about collecting U.S. coins that makes them less enjoyable.

CAC was the last straw. When one person gets to decide which coins you put into your collection, unless you are willing to accept the financial penalties because you have purchased a coin without his sticker, it's time to stop buying. Over the past year, the only U.S. coins I have purchased were a set 2019 silver Proof coins. I am now purching British, tokens and even few ancients. I love my U.S. coin collection, but the days of adding to it are over for me.

[Just Bob]

2 hours ago, BillJones said:

It's a shame. The NGC registry used to be fun, but it's one more aspect about collecting U.S. coins that makes them less enjoyable.

CAC was the last straw. When one person gets to decide which coins you put into your collection, unless you are willing to accept the financial penalties because you have purchased a coin without his sticker, it's time to stop buying. Over the past year, the only U.S. coins I have purchased were a set 2019 silver Proof coins. I am now purching British, tokens and even few ancients. I love my U.S. coin collection, but the days of adding to it are over for me.

Where have you been? I, for one, have missed your input and knowledge around here.

While you are here: there was a poster looking for info/prices on gaming counters. Do you know of an online source for prices?

[Coinbuf]

3 hours ago, BillJones said:

It's a shame. The NGC registry used to be fun, but it's one more aspect about collecting U.S. coins that makes them less enjoyable.

CAC was the last straw. When one person gets to decide which coins you put into your collection, unless you are willing to accept the financial penalties because you have purchased a coin without his sticker, it's time to stop buying. Over the past year, the only U.S. coins I have purchased were a set 2019 silver Proof coins. I am now purching British, tokens and even few ancients. I love my U.S. coin collection, but the days of adding to it are over for me.

You sound like a bitter ex every time you bring this CAC stuff up lol.  So your mad that one man dictates the market (at least in your opinion) yet you allow that one man to dictate what you buy??  You do realize just how silly this sounds right?

Edited June 5, 2019 by Coinbuf

[BillJones]

20 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

You sound like a bitter ex every time you bring this CAC stuff up lol.  So your mad that one man dictates the market (at least in your opinion) yet you allow that one man to dictate what you buy??  You do realize just how silly this sounds right?

My strongest interest in U.S. coins is in items that were minted prior to 1840. My experience with CAC on those coins has been very disappointing. A fair number of pieces to which CAC has given its approval have been sub-par.

The last CAC approved coin that I considered buying was the last piece I needed to complete a set of Classic Head Quarter Eagles in AU to low end Mint State. The coin offered to me was in a PCGS MS-63, CAC holder. The coin had obvious rub in the fields and had been lightly cleaned. The dealer wanted $2,000 more than PCGS price guide, $13,000. The coin was really worth about $5,000 to $6,000. I passed. The price of this coin doubled when the grade went from MS-62 to MS-63. If CAC has such great expertise, how could they have endorsed this coin?

The dealer, who had this piece, is noted for flipping coins within minutes or hours when they go up on his website. He had this piece for three months and was asking people to give him offers. I was not alone in my opinion. Later it popped up in the case of another dealer at the Winter FUN Show.

Finding U.S. coins that I like from the 1792 – 1840 era is difficult for me. At the same time a bunch of collectors and dealers on the PCGS website tell us that the only coins that are any good are those that have PCGS-CAC approval. The NGC-CAC don’t cut it so far as they are concerned. The message is you buy PCGS-CAC material or you are throwing you money away.

I can’t cope with that system. I’m not going put myself in the position where I have to buy CAC approved coins only to survive financially, especially when I don’t care for a lot of what they approve.

I have laid out my case to you. If you want to come back with another insult, go ahead. It’s my money and my collection. If I chose to end my purchases of U.S. coins because of CAC dominance in the market, that is my choice. I just hope that CAC stays out of the token, medal and foreign coin markets. Since I am more drawn to raw items in those areas, I'll probably be able to avoid them if they. do.

[BillJones]

21 hours ago, Just Bob said:

Where have you been? I, for one, have missed your input and knowledge around here.

While you are here: there was a poster looking for info/prices on gaming counters. Do you know of an online source for prices?

Sorry, but I don't know anything about gambling counters. I have never collected them.

[Mohawk]

On 6/5/2019 at 1:11 PM, BillJones said:

It's a shame. The NGC registry used to be fun, but it's one more aspect about collecting U.S. coins that makes them less enjoyable.

CAC was the last straw. When one person gets to decide which coins you put into your collection, unless you are willing to accept the financial penalties because you have purchased a coin without his sticker, it's time to stop buying. Over the past year, the only U.S. coins I have purchased were a set 2019 silver Proof coins. I am now purching British, tokens and even few ancients. I love my U.S. coin collection, but the days of adding to it are over for me.

Bill....though I was never a collector of US coins during the CAC era, I completely agree with you 100% about the absolute ridiculousness of CAC.  I can't stand any of the stickers.  It's really sad to me what CAC has done to the market.......look at your experience.  The whole CAC ridiculousness ruined an area of collecting for you that you enjoyed for years!  When did we get to a point where we have to grade the graders? And, in a few years, are we going to be stickering the stickers?  Where does the craziness end?  Too many people have bought into the hype with the stickers and, on the US side of things, with the PCGS only mindset which has now turned into PCGS+CAC only.  Thankfully, I'm mostly collecting raw Roman denarii of Empress Faustina the Younger and her daughter Lucilla, so CAC does not impact what I do one bit......and that's a great thing!  I'm glad that you found an area to collect in that CAC hasn't impacted as well.......let's just hope that it stays that way!!

Edited June 6, 2019 by Mohawk
Typo

[Coinbuf]

1 hour ago, BillJones said:

My strongest interest in U.S. coins is in items that were minted prior to 1840. My experience with CAC on those coins has been very disappointing. A fair number of pieces to which CAC has given its approval have been sub-par.

The last CAC approved coin that I considered buying was the last piece I needed to complete a set of Classic Head Quarter Eagles in AU to low end Mint State. The coin offered to me was in a PCGS MS-63, CAC holder. The coin had obvious rub in the fields and had been lightly cleaned. The dealer wanted $2,000 more than PCGS price guide, $13,000. The coin was really worth about $5,000 to $6,000. I passed. The price of this coin doubled when the grade went from MS-62 to MS-63. If CAC has such great expertise, how could they have endorsed this coin?

The dealer, who had this piece, is noted for flipping coins within minutes or hours when they go up on his website. He had this piece for three months and was asking people to give him offers. I was not alone in my opinion. Later it popped up in the case of another dealer at the Winter FUN Show.

Finding U.S. coins that I like from the 1792 – 1840 era is difficult for me. At the same time a bunch of collectors and dealers on the PCGS website tell us that the only coins that are any good are those that have PCGS-CAC approval. The NGC-CAC don’t cut it so far as they are concerned. The message is you buy PCGS-CAC material or you are throwing you money away.

I can’t cope with that system. I’m not going put myself in the position where I have to buy CAC approved coins only to survive financially, especially when I don’t care for a lot of what they approve.

I have laid out my case to you. If you want to come back with another insult, go ahead. It’s my money and my collection. If I chose to end my purchases of U.S. coins because of CAC dominance in the market, that is my choice. I just hope that CAC stays out of the token, medal and foreign coin markets. Since I am more drawn to raw items in those areas, I'll probably be able to avoid them if they. do.

Certainly its your time, energy, and money so what you do is your choice, I just find it ironic is all.  And really the issue you have is not so much with CAC as it is with the current market grading system which assigned values more so than grades.  Looking at your example you say that your unhappy buying a coin in an MS holder that is CAC approved  because the coin is not mint state and shows signs of cleaning.  Is CAC to blame for an over graded cleaned coin in an MS holder or is that the fault of the grading company.  And how can you blame CAC for gradeflation, JA has no control over the crackout/resubmission game that has been going on for years.  If a coin is cracked and given a higher grade by one of the TPG's and then subsequently rebeaned  it just means that CAC still likes the coin and would be a market maker for it, but they have no way of knowing the submission history behind every coin that is sent to them.  And yes CAC does make mistakes just as we all do that should be expected of human related events, however just because you don't agree with a grade or a bean doesn't automatically mean that the grade or bean is wrong simply that you disagree 

The real issue is that you have a different standard than is currently used by the TPG's much the same as the EAC collectors have a much more stringent grading standard.   Remember that CAC is not grading the coins but instead by giving a coin a sticker they are simply saying that is a coin that CAC likes, would buy and make a market for.  Now it is true that the market has decided that as an overall it values those coins with CAC beans higher but as I understand it that wasn't the intention when JA started CAC, rather just how things have evolved.  Markets do funny and unexpected things most of which cannot be foreseen.

So what happens if you buy a non CAC approved coin, well you should be paying less for it when you buy it and assuming you do not get it beaned before you sell it the sale price will be less.  Where is the financial impact your so afraid of, you bought at wholesale and sold at wholesale as apposed to buying the CAC example at retail and selling at retail.  Certainly there will be uninformed buyers who are relying on TPG's and CAC to do the homework for them, your experience should help you to avoid the mistakes and pitfalls that those uninformed buyers will not.  

Its your choice but to continue to harp on CAC when the real root of the issue is how coins are graded under the current method and standard is quite pointless.  And yes I am a supporter of CAC as a whole, I know CAC is not perfect and I wont like or agree with every CAC beaned coin in the market but it provides another safety layer to those of us (like myself) who don't have 30, or 40. or fifty years of looking at coins every day.  

 

[BillJones]

1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

Is CAC to blame for an over graded cleaned coin in an MS holder or is that the fault of the grading company.  And how can you blame CAC for gradeflation, JA has no control over the crackout/resubmission game that has been going on for years.

If the coin is over graded, JA should not put a sticker on it. What is it about that concept that you can't understand? CAC is supposed to protect collectors from over graded materal.

I get it. You are a CAC Kool Aid drinker. You probably have a vested interest in pushing the product because you are either a CAC authorized dealer, have invested heavily in CAC graded coins or both. Others have tried to brow beat me into becoming a CAC cheerleader, so what you are doing is nothing new.

I'm out. Enjoy your Kool Aid, but don't expect me to join you. The game is over for me. The table that was supporting the Kool Aid stand split down the middle for me a couple of years ago.

Edited June 6, 2019 by BillJones

[Mohawk]

5 minutes ago, BillJones said:

If the coin is over graded, JA should not put a sticker on it. What is it about that concept that you can't understand? CAC is supposed to protect collectors from over graded materal.

I get it. You are a CAC Kool Aid drinker. You probably have a vested interest in pushing the product because you are either a CAC authorized dealer, have invested heavily in CAC graded coins or both. Others have tried to brow beat me into becoming a CAC cheerleader, so what you are doing is nothing new.

I'm out. Enjoy your Kool Aid, but don't expect me to join you. The game is over for me. The table that was supporting the Kool Aid stand split down the middle for me a couple of years ago.

Well said, Sir, well said indeed!  Sadly, there isn't an emoji for a standing ovation so this will have to do

[MAULEMALL]

We don't get political on the boards but the whole cac thing is political.. Regulate those who regulate and in every sense regulate the value of the sticker on the regulated slab.

[Coinbuf]

39 minutes ago, BillJones said:

If the coin is over graded, JA should not put a sticker on it. What is it about that concept that you can't understand? CAC is supposed to protect collectors from over graded materal.

I get it. You are a CAC Kool Aid drinker. You probably have a vested interest in pushing the product because you are either a CAC authorized dealer, have invested heavily in CAC graded coins or both. Others have tried to brow beat me into becoming a CAC cheerleader, so what you are doing is nothing new.

I'm out. Enjoy your Kool Aid, but don't expect me to join you. The game is over for me. The table that was supporting the Kool Aid stand split down the middle for me a couple of years ago.

 

With every statement you show just how little you understand of the CAC business model, CAC is not here to protect anyone and where you got that misinformation from is just wild.  And I'm beginning to think that there is good reason why your not a dealer anymore.  It seems simple that someone with the experience you claim to have would be making a killing by buying non CAC material, running those thru the bean factory and making mint on the other side.

Kool-aid drinker no I'm more a Gatorade man myself, but you certainly showed just how bad a judge of people you are with that statement haha.  I have never been a dealer and I have zero desire to, nor do I have any ties of any type to CAC.  You make yourself look ignorant making assumptions like that when you have never met or know anything about who I am.

Brow beat you, once again you miss the mark you've done that to yourself by letting one man dictate to you what you collect, no need for me to do so lol.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Mohawk said:

Well said, Sir, well said indeed!  Sadly, there isn't an emoji for a standing ovation so this will have to do

Does your applause indicate you agree with the thought that if Mr. Jones (or someone else) believes a coin to be over-graded, that must be so and CAC shouldn’t sticker it? And that he was justified in his accusations against Coinbuf for taking issue with his stance? 

[Revenant]

Did we used to have an emoji about beating a dead horse? 

[Mohawk]

15 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Does your applause indicate you agree with the thought that if Mr. Jones (or someone else) believes a coin to be over-graded, that must be so and CAC shouldn’t sticker it? And that he was justified in his accusations against Coinbuf for taking issue with his stance? 

Actually, I should have been more clear there Mark and I do apologize.  I'm applauding Bill for not buying into the CAC hype and being willing to openly share his thoughts on it and for bowing out of playing the CAC game.  I was applauding this part here:

Quote

I'm out. Don't expect me to join you. The game is over for me.

I think that I've been so sick of the whole sticker hype that I was just so glad to see another collector who was as fed up with it as I am.  I meant no disrespect to Coinbuf as a person at all and I apologize that it may have come off that way.  But I do despise the sticker game and I despise CAC for creating it and I have a hard time with the CAC cheerleaders because I honestly feel that CAC has done a lot more harm than good to the hobby.  And, I think that Coinbuf would be the first to admit that he's highly pro-CAC.  Bill was willing to stand against the tide of CAC lovers and against a company who has done a lot to ruin for him an area of collecting that he previously really enjoyed.  Bill was willing to share an opinion which may not be popular among many collectors and he stood by it.  That's what I was applauding.  I happen to share his feelings on CAC and I really wish that they, and others, were not stickering anything. 

So, I was writing quickly with my heart here when I should have explained myself better.  I do apologize and I hope that I've clarified myself properly here.

And, yes, this may be a dead horse kind of issue.  CAC is here, for better or worse.  Some people love them, some hate them.  I just happen to be in the latter camp. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Mohawk

[MarkFeld]

3 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

Actually, I should have been more clear there Mark and I do apologize.  I'm applauding Bill for not buying into the CAC hype and being willing to openly share his thoughts on it and for bowing out of playing the CAC game.  I was applauding this part here:

I think that I've been so sick of the whole sticker hype that I was just so glad to see another collector who was as fed up with it as I am.  I meant no disrespect to Coinbuf as a person at all and I apologize that it may have come off that way.  But I do despise the sticker game and I despise CAC for creating it and I have a hard time with the CAC cheerleaders because I honestly feel that CAC has done a lot more harm than good to the hobby.  And, I think that Coinbuf would be the first to admit that he's highly pro-CAC.  Bill was willing to stand against the tide of CAC lovers and against a company who has done a lot to ruin for him an area of collecting that he previously really enjoyed.  Bill was willing to share an opinion which may not be popular among many collectors and he stood by it.  That's what I was applauding.  I happen to share his feelings on CAC and I really wish that they, and others, were not stickering anything. 

So, I was writing quickly with my heart here when I should have explained myself better.  I do apologize and I hope that I've clarified myself properly here.

And, yes, this may be a dead horse kind of issue.  CAC is here, for better or worse.  Some people love them, some hate them.  I just happen to be in the latter camp. 

Thanks for the clarification.

[Mohawk]

2 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Thanks for the clarification.

No problem......thanks for mentioning that my initial post implied some things that I did not mean to imply.  I'm just glad that I was able to get what I really meant clarified.  I should have been thinking better when I wrote that.........  I just really, really hate CAC

[MarkFeld]

12 minutes ago, Revenant said:

Did we used to have an emoji about beating a dead horse? 

If so, that particular emoji was no doubt, beaten to death.😄

[Coinbuf]

1 hour ago, Mohawk said:

I meant no disrespect to Coinbuf as a person at all and I apologize that it may have come off that way.

No worries I was not offended in any way by your comments, I have no issues with how Bill or anyone feels about this or any subject.  But it does get tiring when the only comments that Bill makes is how much he hates NGC because of the registry change and how much he hates CAC.  If he has moved on then please just drop the snide comments and use his knowledge to be helpful instead of bitter.

Have a good night everyone, yes even you Bill. 

[Mohawk]

20 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

No worries I was not offended in any way by your comments, I have no issues with how Bill or anyone feels about this or any subject.  But it does get tiring when the only comments that Bill makes is how much he hates NGC because of the registry change and how much he hates CAC.  If he has moved on then please just drop the snide comments and use his knowledge to be helpful instead of bitter.

Have a good night everyone, yes even you Bill. 

Glad to hear it, and I see your points about what Bill says about the NGC Registry change.  I agree with you there.  It's just the CAC thing with me, but as I mainly collect Roman coins now, I should probably shut up about it.....I doubt that CAC is going to start stickering Roman coins anytime soon, so it's really not even something I have to worry about with my collecting. 

Have a great night! Glad I didn't offend....I never mean to

~Tom

[BillJones]

1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

No worries I was not offended in any way by your comments, I have no issues with how Bill or anyone feels about this or any subject.  But it does get tiring when the only comments that Bill makes is how much he hates NGC because of the registry change and how much he hates CAC.  If he has moved on then please just drop the snide comments and use his knowledge to be helpful instead of bitter.

Have a good night everyone, yes even you Bill. 

Drink you Kool Aid and go away. I understand the CAC model, and you do not. It is marketing with a grading accuracy component. Read their ads in “The Coin Dealer Newsletter,” and you will see that

As for why I retired as a dealer was because I got old; my wife and I are financially secure; and she wanted me to retire. If you write any more fiction about my personal life, I will not respond.

If you want to talk about collecting, history or economics, I will respond. If you attack me because I do not agree with you about CAC, I will ignore you. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by BillJones