NGC graded coins ONLY in Registry Sets (US and World) 0

[brg5658]

This is a long time coming. See Mark Salzberg's message from this morning here.

 

A quote from his letter:

 

To be clear, all coins currently in NGC Registry sets, including those graded by other services, will be allowed to stay in those sets. There will be no NGC Registry point deductions or rank changes for these coins or sets. Starting in January 2017, however, if you would like to add a new coin to an NGC Registry set, it will need to be an NGC-certified coin.

 

Discuss...

[Lastufka Collection]

Personally, I'm fine with it. I only have one single non-NGC-graded coin in my sets so it won't impact me. And the other big registry has been exclusive for a while (since its beginning?). But I'm sure there are others who will be upset (as the letter acknowledges).

[numisport]

I think Mr. Salzberg and NGC have done the right thing. And I was under the impression that when NGC did except PCGS or other coins, they were added to sets but received zero points in the set. Do I understand this correctly ?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

This is a long time coming. See Mark Salzberg's message from this morning here.

 

A quote from his letter:

 

To be clear, all coins currently in NGC Registry sets, including those graded by other services, will be allowed to stay in those sets. There will be no NGC Registry point deductions or rank changes for these coins or sets. Starting in January 2017, however, if you would like to add a new coin to an NGC Registry set, it will need to be an NGC-certified coin.

 

Discuss...

 

I don't participate in the Registry, but that makes perfect business sense. I think up to now the host has been very accommodating. I have heard this from other collectors many times especially world coin collectors. Has the courtesy been reciprocated?

[brg5658]

I think Mr. Salzberg and NGC have done the right thing. And I was under the impression that when NGC did except PCGS or other coins, they were added to sets but received zero points in the set. Do I understand this correctly ?

 

No, you do not understand correctly.

[numisport]

I think Mr. Salzberg and NGC have done the right thing. And I was under the impression that when NGC did except PCGS or other coins, they were added to sets but received zero points in the set. Do I understand this correctly ?

 

No, you do not understand correctly.

Has this been changed in last few years ? I don't recall where I got that impression and I used to have registry sets. I can even remember tallying points on a calculator just to see if totals were correct. Guess I just need to open my eyes and be more aware.

[coinsbygary]

What I think is implied in Mark's statement is that NGC slabs are cracked out, sent for crossover to PCGS, and re-entered in the NGC registry at a higher grade. I accept his reasoning and their decision to granfather older PCGS coins already in the registry. This I think will effectively level the playing field between the two registries. It will also cause an NGC registry participant to submit raw and crossover coins to NGC for grading rather than to PCGS for later entry into NGC's registry. This then is a business decision that makes perfect sense.

Gary

Edited November 10, 2016 by gherrmann44

[brg5658]

I think Mr. Salzberg and NGC have done the right thing. And I was under the impression that when NGC did except PCGS or other coins, they were added to sets but received zero points in the set. Do I understand this correctly ?

 

No, you do not understand correctly.

Has this been changed in last few years ? I don't recall where I got that impression and I used to have registry sets. I can even remember tallying points on a calculator just to see if totals were correct. Guess I just need to open my eyes and be more aware.

 

To this point two things have happened:

• A couple years ago NGC begain to disallow all PCGS graded coins in non-USA (world coin) competitive registry sets. At that time, PCGS graded coins were still allowed in USA competitive registry sets, but were completely removed from world coin registry sets.
  .
  
• At the time that NGC disallowed PCGS coins in non-USA (world coin) registry sets, they also added the functionality to USA registry sets to see both the "NGC coins" rankings and the "All coins" rankings. They awarded paper certificates at the end of each calendar year for both the highest ranking sets for "NGC coins" only, and for the "All coins" sets (including PCGS graded coins).
   
  
   
  

 

 

With this new announcement, beginning on January 1, 2017 -- any coin graded by PCGS that is currently in a competitive USA-coin registry set will be allowed (grandfathered in), but it will not be possible to add PCGS graded coins from that point on.

 

I think the next obvious change will be to disallow all PCGS graded coins in USA-coin registry sets, just as NGC has done for non-USA coin (world coin) registry sets.

 

As a note of comparison -- PCGS has never allowed NGC graded coins in their registry sets for USA or non-USA (world) coins.

 

 

[SkyMan]

It's a PITA to me. I don't significantly use the PCGS Registry specifically because they don't accept NGC coins. All of my coins are on the NGC Registry, and of those roughly 2/3 are in PCGS slabs. I have a long way to go on my Type Set, and I strongly suspect I'll be buying coins in both major TPG's slabs.

 

As the saying goes, I buy the coin and not the holder, and NGC slabs have plenty of well graded coins (of which I feel ZERO need to reslab them in PCGS plastic, although I may send in the more valuable ones for CAC before selling them).

 

 

ARGGGHHHHH!!!

 

 

What I think is implied in Mark's statement is that NGC slabs are cracked out, sent for crossover to PCGS, and re-entered in the NGC registry at a higher grade. I accept his reasoning and their decision to granfather older PCGS coins already in the registry. This I think will effectively level the playing field between the two registries. It will also cause an NGC registry participant to submit raw and crossover coins to NGC for grading rather than to PCGS for later entry into NGC's registry. This then is a business decision that makes perfect sense.

Gary

 

 

While I have made thousands of dollars off of getting NGC slabbed coins to upgrade over at PCGS, I think the majority (or at least a large minority) of higher valued coins that are slabbed at NGC will not cross at grade at PCGS, much less upgrade. You are welcome to prove me wrong by taking a representative selection (NOT a handpicked selection) and attempting to crossover.

 

It seems to me that IN GENERAL a higher value coin is worth more in a PCGS slab than in an NGC slab. Are there people who crack PCGS slabs and send them to NGC for crossover? Sure! However, IMO, the vast majority of crack outs are from people attempting to go from NGC to PCGS slabs.

[Hack]

I am in the middle of collecting a Type Set with both NGC and PCGS certified coins in the NGC registry. I like to use the NGC registry as a place to photograph and keep records about my coins. MY sets will never compete for the top prizes. This announcement is really disappointing as I am being forced by NGC to make a decision how I will collect in the future. I am leaning toward converting my collection to PCGS as I have more PCGS coins. This will most likely mean that I will not buy any more NGC coins unless I feel that the coin will cross to PCGS.

 

 

[jackson64]

As for me, I will build my personal collection with the coins I like the most and judge to be of quality--I refuse to be confined to choosing a "Slab Loyalty".

I guess this means that my participation in the Registry is done...

 

To all of my longtime friends here, a quick farewell.

[brg5658]

As for me, I will build my personal collection with the coins I like the most and judge to be of quality--I refuse to be confined to choosing a "Slab Loyalty".

I guess this means that my participation in the Registry is done...

 

To all of my longtime friends here, a quick farewell.

 

The "competitive registry" component will change, but the Custom Sets will stay the same (as far as I know). I will continue to use that to display and organize my coins and sets.

 

Don't go!

[coinsbygary]

It's a PITA to me. I don't significantly use the PCGS Registry specifically because they don't accept NGC coins. All of my coins are on the NGC Registry, and of those roughly 2/3 are in PCGS slabs. I have a long way to go on my Type Set, and I strongly suspect I'll be buying coins in both major TPG's slabs.

 

As the saying goes, I buy the coin and not the holder, and NGC slabs have plenty of well graded coins (of which I feel ZERO need to reslab them in PCGS plastic, although I may send in the more valuable ones for CAC before selling them).

 

 

ARGGGHHHHH!!!

 

 

What I think is implied in Mark's statement is that NGC slabs are cracked out, sent for crossover to PCGS, and re-entered in the NGC registry at a higher grade. I accept his reasoning and their decision to granfather older PCGS coins already in the registry. This I think will effectively level the playing field between the two registries. It will also cause an NGC registry participant to submit raw and crossover coins to NGC for grading rather than to PCGS for later entry into NGC's registry. This then is a business decision that makes perfect sense.

Gary

 

 

While I have made thousands of dollars off of getting NGC slabbed coins to upgrade over at PCGS, I think the majority (or at least a large minority) of higher valued coins that are slabbed at NGC will not cross at grade at PCGS, much less upgrade. You are welcome to prove me wrong by taking a representative selection (NOT a handpicked selection) and attempting to crossover.

 

It seems to me that IN GENERAL a higher value coin is worth more in a PCGS slab than in an NGC slab. Are there people who crack PCGS slabs and send them to NGC for crossover? Sure! However, IMO, the vast majority of crack outs are from people attempting to go from NGC to PCGS slabs.

 

True, I don't disagree with any of your points, I was just stating that I understand this decision from a business standpoint and I'm surprised that this decision hadn't come earlier. I am only quoting what I perceive is Mark's logic behind this decision. By allowing PCGS coins in their registry, NGC is figuring that they are at a competitive disadvantage, even if more people participate in their registry than they do ATS.

Gary

Edited November 10, 2016 by gherrmann44

[coinsbygary]

As for me, I will build my personal collection with the coins I like the most and judge to be of quality--I refuse to be confined to choosing a "Slab Loyalty".

I guess this means that my participation in the Registry is done...

 

To all of my longtime friends here, a quick farewell.

 

The "competitive registry" component will change, but the Custom Sets will stay the same (as far as I know). I will continue to use that to display and organize my coins and sets.

 

Don't go!

 

+1

[brg5658]

It seems to me that IN GENERAL a higher value coin is worth more in a PCGS slab than in an NGC slab. Are there people who crack PCGS slabs and send them to NGC for crossover? Sure! However, IMO, the vast majority of crack outs are from people attempting to go from NGC to PCGS slabs.

 

What you express may historically be true.

 

BUT, I think NGC (and Mark Salzberg) are right in their assessment that in the past 2-3 years, PCGS graded USA coins have suffered from wild fluctuation and gradeflation problems. The "color bumps" of some PCGS graded coins have gotten a bit out of control in my view, and I see a lot of coins in overgraded recent PCGS holders.

 

Like you said, I buy the coins I like. I really don't get to worried about the difference of an MS65 vs. MS67 coin if I like the coin and it isn't priced stupidly. But, the registries are a game and an ego stroking venue for people.

 

 

=========================================================

 

An excerpt from Mark Salzberg's letter addressing this is below:

 

After three decades as an NGC grading finalizer, I can say with confidence that our grading has remained accurate and consistent since the earliest days of the company.

 

I can also say that other grading services appear to have changed their grading standards for a variety of reasons. Many of you reading this will know exactly what I am talking about but for those who do not, I encourage you to ask some numismatic professionals and to research historical population reports and auction prices realized for different grading services.

[WoodenJefferson]

A sound business model.

[Walkerfan]

Let me start by saying that I love NGC----always have and always will.

 

But I'd be lying, if I said that this wasn't disappointing to me, though.

 

I will continue to collect, as I always have----buying the best coin that I can find in either holder.

 

Now, some 11 years after joining the Registry program my Registry set will likely never see completion and will not be a true representation of my actual collection.

 

Set building is addictive, anyway, I spend far too much time, energy and other resources on it, so maybe I can slow down a bit, now, and focus my efforts elsewhere.

 

I'll still collect. I'll always collect. I will do what I can before the end of the year but it certainly won't be done. If I buy a nice NGC coin after that, then I'll add it, otherwise (if it's a PCGS coin) it will be added to my collection but just not my Registry set.

 

Thanks, NGC for years of enjoyment. I will still be here, on the boards, but my registry participation will just, obviously, not be at full capacity. I wish you continued business success.

 

 

[JackieO]

Thanks for sharing this news!

[erwindoc]

I don't like the changes. I chose the NGC registry years ago so I could use both TPG coins in my set. Now, I don't know what I'll do.

 

[CSdot]

What I think is implied in Mark's statement is that NGC slabs are cracked out, sent for crossover to PCGS, and re-entered in the NGC registry at a higher grade. I accept his reasoning and their decision to granfather older PCGS coins already in the registry. This I think will effectively level the playing field between the two registries. It will also cause an NGC registry participant to submit raw and crossover coins to NGC for grading rather than to PCGS for later entry into NGC's registry. This then is a business decision that makes perfect sense.

Gary

 

This may be the first time I've read a post where this premise is that ATS likes to upgrade, not downgrade, coins slabbed on this side of the street. That said, if this election has taught us anything, sometimes the hype is just an empty pantsuit.

[BillJones]

I find this decision to be very disappointing. I have worked for years to build registry sets with photos and notes with the goal of educating collectors. Now there are limits to what I can do in the future.

 

I have refused to make much of an effort to participate in the PCGS registry because they do not accept NGC coins. I only got into in a token way so that I could use their Internet search feature. Now I am facing the same situation with the NGC registry.

 

This will not prompt me buy more NGC coins. I buy coins because I think they are properly graded and fairly priced.

 

This is a very bad, short sighted decision. You have hurt the credibility of your registry, Mr. Salzberg.

[BillJones]

A sound business model.

 

No, it isn't. It is very short sighted decision that will hurt the hobby with very little if any gain for NGC. It might very well hurt NGC in the long run because it will hurt collector enthusiasm.

[MarkFeld]

What I think is implied in Mark's statement is that NGC slabs are cracked out, sent for crossover to PCGS, and re-entered in the NGC registry at a higher grade. I accept his reasoning and their decision to granfather older PCGS coins already in the registry. This I think will effectively level the playing field between the two registries. It will also cause an NGC registry participant to submit raw and crossover coins to NGC for grading rather than to PCGS for later entry into NGC's registry. This then is a business decision that makes perfect sense.

Gary

 

This may be the first time I've read a post where this premise is that ATS likes to upgrade, not downgrade, coins slabbed on this side of the street. That said, if this election has taught us anything, sometimes the hype is just an empty pantsuit.

 

I don't think the implication was that PCGS "ikes to upgrade, not downgrade, coins slabbed on this side of the street." I think it was that they have loosened up on their standards and that they will be more likely than previously, to grade certain coins higher than NGC. And that NGC would not want all of those coins included in their registry sets at the higher grades.

 

There is a difference between upgrading slabbed coins which are submitted for crossover, vs, grading the coins higher if they are removed from their holders and submitted for grading. The latter is far more likely to occur than the former.

[coin928]

The following is a reply I made to journal post from early this morning on this same topic. This has now become the dominant thread, so I am re-posting it here:

 

I too find this policy change disheartening. There were many reasons I chose the NGC registry over PCGS, but the major one was the inclusiveness of both NGC and PCGS graded coins.

 

The quantity of coins in my areas of interest is very small. For example, the complete NGC population for the U.S./Philippine 1915S Ten Centavos is 10, with only two graded MS60 or above. The total PCGS population on the other hand is more than two and a half times greater at 26 with 14 graded above MS60. Two of the lowest graded NGC coins are mine, and the only reason I decided to have them graded was because these coins just do not come up for sale very often. There was simply no other way to complete my online set.

 

There are currently 16 distinct Ten Centavo set owners, so with the new restriction, there can be at most 10 complete sets. The fine print of this new restriction did however provide for grandfathering all PCGS slabbed coins currently in NGC Registry sets. (I wish NGC had done this for the World sets a few years ago.) I am assuming that as long as you don't remove a PCGS graded coin from one of your sets, it can remain there indefinitely.

 

My U.S./Philippine sets contain roughly 33% PCGS graded coins, and I currently have no plans to remove them or cross them to NGC unless there is some seriously compelling financial incentive to do so. I will continue to look for a mint state 1915S Ten Centavo coin regardless of the plastic it is encapsulated in. At this point in time though, the odds are seven to one that it will be in a PCGS slab.

 

If I can find upgrades in PCGS slabs, so be it. If there are enough of them, I'll just create parallel Custom sets to highlight my best overall collection. I still enjoy collecting and will continue to do so regardless of online policies that I can not control.

 

I can understand that NGC believes that they do a better job of grading than anyone else. Honestly, would you really want to send your coins to a company that did not believe that? I think they could have taken a little less heavy handed approach with the Registry though. For example, NGC could assert their superiority and still allow PCGS coins to participate in the NGC Registry by discounting the points earned by some percentage, say 10%. I hope they read this and consider an alternative to complete exclusivity.

[Hard Times]

I don't think the implication was that PCGS "ikes to upgrade, not downgrade, coins slabbed on this side of the street." I think it was that they have loosened up on their standards and that they will be more likely than previously, to grade certain coins higher than NGC. And that NGC would not want all of those coins included in their registry sets at the higher grades.

 

There is a difference between upgrading slabbed coins which are submitted for crossover, vs, grading the coins higher if they are removed from their holders and submitted for grading. The latter is far more likely to occur than the former.

 

That is how I read it as well, but Mr. Salzberg clearly stated that:

 

"After three decades as an NGC grading finalizer, I can say with confidence that our grading has remained accurate and consistent since the earliest days of the company. "

 

How accurate is that? I do believe that right now NGC is very strict, but has that always been the case? Have they been consistent and what does that mean?

 

Best, HT

[CSdot]

The NGC and PCGS registries have one big draw each that I enjoy. For PCGS that is the really cool virtual album feature. For NGC is it has been the ability to compete and display all of my coins in one place, regardless of name brand on the slab.

 

Up until this announcement, the NGC ability to compete and display all of my coins in one place was a more attractive draw. For this reason, NGC has been my home and earned my loyalty.

 

However, with this recent decision, the NGC advantage is disappearing. The result, the registry with the really cool virtual album feature will be the clear winner.

 

Given the decision to discard the key benefit of the NGC registry, all I can suggest is that NGC do some soul searching on what they can do to differentiate their registry from ATS. Thanks.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

NGC, I am *EXTREMELY* disappointed by this decision.

 

One of the reasons that I am (was) a member of NGC, and one of the reasons that I participate in the Registry, is because you were open and inclusive of both major graders. I shunned the exclusivity of the other company, based on their supposed superiority. The truth is, both PCGS and NGC are approximately equal - NGC does some things better, PCGS does some things better, but you're pretty much the same. Until recently, customer service has been NGC's strong point - and the welcoming Registry went a long way towards showing this. This decision is extremely disappointing.

 

When you made this decision in the World registry, I wasn't a fan because it set a precedent. NGC is clearly better at grading World coins, but being an open Registry has significant benefits.

 

However, its your website, and your company. You are free to do as you please with it. I, as a paying customer, am also free to do as I please. I am sure you realized that this would loose you customers. I am sorry it has come to this.

 

I will be cancelling my paid NGC membership at the earliest possible moment.

 

It's been fun, NGC, and I'll still hang out here on the forums, but its time for us to part financially. It's not me, it's you.

[physics-fan3.14]

As for me, I will build my personal collection with the coins I like the most and judge to be of quality--I refuse to be confined to choosing a "Slab Loyalty".

I guess this means that my participation in the Registry is done...

 

To all of my longtime friends here, a quick farewell.

 

Exactly. I buy the coin and not the holder.

 

One of the reasons I enjoy the Registry is the ability to neatly and easily share my collection with everyone else. Most of my collection is NGC, but I'm certainly not going to cross my other pieces just to post on a website. There are a lot of other websites out there for sharing things. I'm not beholden to this slabber, and I'm not beholden to this website.

[coinman_23885]

I think it is unfortunate as one of the strengths of the registry here was that it would allow coins from both top tier services. I also think there are many more PCGS-only diehard fans than NGC-only diehard fans, and I attribute this largely to the marketing strategies of both companies. NGC has long advocated buying the coin and not the plastic (I have seen this in various articles on the site throughout the years where I seem to recall NGC or its staff using similar language). It appears NGC has ditched this strategy. PCGS has long advocated brand name loyalty.

 

Unless the NGC-only following is larger than I think it is, I predict this will hurt the registry and will not improve NGC's bottom line.

[comicdonna]

It's a little sad to see NGC do this. I'm used to it though. Just posting a competitors slab on the comics side is strike worthy.