NGC/CAC coin downgrade

[Nutmeg Coin]

I resubmitted this coin, a gold dollar, NGC and cac had graded it MS63: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1852-G-1-NGC-MS63-OH-CAC-/331922958293?ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

 

The dealer I bought it from as well as a local long term expert thought it was a no problem high end coin. I cracked it and dipped it in acetone, nothing else. Second time around MS62. Dark toning was not affected much, one thought, maybe the chatter on the reverse become more apparent with the acetone dip.

[RWB]

Well, they always "look high end" to the sellers. If the differences in color in the fields vs near stars are correct, then it isn't even uncirculated.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Then why didn't they crack it and dip it in acetone?

[physics-fan3.14]

Why did you crack it out?

 

And why did you apply acetone to it?

[johnny9434]

its to bad you had to take a loss of grade like that and the cac sticker as well.

[MJ]

And it was in a fattie. You sir are indeed a rebel ; )

 

mark

[RWB]

Hmmmm....OK if I try to work through the values, here's what I get.....This is just the way I approach the value proposition. The methods of the OP and others might be very different.

 

If the gentlemen you named, "...Guilford coin as well as Robert Riemer thought it was a no problem high end coin...." believed this, and we presume that the coin-is-the-grade-and -not-the-plastic, then either should be willing to purchase it at the MS-63-with-sticker wholesale price.....? (Unless some sort of damage occurred after cracking-out.)

 

The average of recent Heritage auction sales for 1852 gold dollars in MS-63 is $514. If we add $100 for the cute sticker, we get an auction value of $614, less 17.5% buyer's fee for about $507 net. If there is a 20% margin for this coin, then it would have a wholesale value of about $405.00.

 

MS-62 has an auction average of $328.00.

 

(Auction values come from the NGC Coin Explorer.)

[Nutmeg Coin]

Why did you crack it out?

 

And why did you apply acetone to it?

 

From what I heard from the others, it was high end and maybe the dark toning was holding it back? I have heard acetone never hurts a coin, but maybe it removes "stuff" that quieted the chatter?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Except that it has now been dipped and disclosed as such. Whether or not done correctly or incorrectly, or with good intentions, it would not be judged that way by a knowledgeable purchaser. It was cracked out. It is now a 62. It did not state if the downgrade was due to the dip or the technical grade of the coin. It has been discussed openly on a coin board and the dealers named.

 

All that adds up to, using my math, oops. The value has a greater probability of much less. Being in a 62 is one of those never never land grades that sucks.

[brg5658]

Except that it has now been dipped and disclosed as such.

 

Rinsing a coin with acetone is not what is meant by the term "dipped" when it is used numismatically.

 

 

As for the OP, I have no earthly idea why you'd crack a coin like that...you got what you deserved as far as I can tell.

[Nutmeg Coin]

A word to the wise then; don't crack out coins.

 

New certification: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4432032-001/

[RWB]

We all do things that "seem right at the time." I'm sure that was the case here, especially after being reassured the coin was "high end" by coin selling professionals. It's an very unfortunate and costly event -- reminds me of the woman I married.....

[brg5658]

A word to the wise then; don't crack out coins.

 

New certification: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4432032-001/

 

All is not lost. I'm sure this coin will be cracked, submitted, and maxed back out to its MS63 or even MS64 plastic before all is said and done. It's just a question of whether you want to be the person who tries that, or the next dealer down the line...

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Except that it has now been dipped and disclosed as such.

 

Rinsing a coin with acetone is not what is meant by the term "dipped" when it is used numismatically.

 

 

As for the OP, I have no earthly idea why you'd crack a coin like that...you got what you deserved as far as I can tell.

 

Thank you for the education. I have heard that story and explanation before. I heard the same story when it used to be MEK. I heard the same story when it was 91% alcohol and soy sauce. I heard the same story when it was....well, you name it. But, be sure to use the q tip.

 

Then again, I never was good at using numismatic terms. A lot of them have been dipped and re-defined.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A word to the wise then; don't crack out coins.

 

New certification: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4432032-001/

 

I agree. The coin is what it is.

[originalisbest]

I think the coin may have lost a touch of its "character" post-acetone, but it now is what it is -- no going back. I guess just sell it and move on, but I would have preferred to leave it as is. Oh well.

[BillJones]

I don't have an MS-63, 1852-P gold dollar, but here is an NGC MS-64 you can use for a baseline.

 

 

Here is an 1854 Type I in NGC MS-63. I think that the grade on this one is too conservative.

 

 

And here is an 1850-P that PCGS graded MS-62. The 1850-P is a sleeper date. You find out how underrated it is when you go shopping for one.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Thanks, Bill. I had an 1849 G$1 in Unc., older holder. It was well worth the money.

[Nutmeg Coin]

We all do things that "seem right at the time." I'm sure that was the case here, especially after being reassured the coin was "high end" by coin selling professionals. It's an very unfortunate and costly event -- reminds me of the woman I married.....

 

I remember reading maybe on the cdn on how eager buyers were looking for CAC certified coins at shows that would upgrade. Another option, run the coin by NCS if you think "something" needs to be taken off for a coin to upgrade. Hopefully they would say no dice to that unless the coin had a problem to begin with.Why did I crack out the coin besides the assessment that it was pq by those who have a lot more experience than myself? I didn't want to wait a month for the inevitable conservation treatment, I can't recall them not conserving a submission before. I had a coin that doubles in value in the next grade, sent it into NCS as I heard maybe the fingerprints on the reverse are holding it back. NCS said: EVALUATED-NO CROSS/NO NCS

[Walkerfan]

I wouldn't have fooled with that coin, slab or sticker. JMHO.

[BillJones]

I have seen quite a number of 1849 "No L" gold dollars that were conservative graded.

[RWB]

Here's an "AU 58" - or so the label says. (Variety 3-E)

 

 

So far as I am concerned it's a nice high end EF. But it was bought at a good value for the actual grade.

[originalisbest]

Has far better than XF detail, from the scan appearance. I'd argue for some grade of AU, if not AU58.

[physics-fan3.14]

Why did you crack it out?

 

And why did you apply acetone to it?

 

From what I heard from the others, it was high end and maybe the dark toning was holding it back? I have heard acetone never hurts a coin, but maybe it removes "stuff" that quieted the chatter?

 

Your explanation doesn't make sense to me.

 

1. I don't see dark toning in your pictures. I see some natural patina, but nothing that would "hold it back."

 

2. You should know that acetone has no effect on toning.

 

3. If you wanted it conserved, why not let NCS do it?

 

4. Could you point specifically to the areas that you think needed conservation?

 

5. Can you show us pictures of the coin now? Acetone should have had no effect on that coin, from what I can see.

 

6. Is 62 the right grade? I realize that ownership adds 1.5 points, but be honest - what is the right grade for this coin?

[coinman_23885]

Why did you crack it out?

 

And why did you apply acetone to it?

 

From what I heard from the others, it was high end and maybe the dark toning was holding it back? I have heard acetone never hurts a coin, but maybe it removes "stuff" that quieted the chatter?

 

Your explanation doesn't make sense to me.

 

1. I don't see dark toning in your pictures. I see some natural patina, but nothing that would "hold it back."

 

2. You should know that acetone has no effect on toning.

 

3. If you wanted it conserved, why not let NCS do it?

 

4. Could you point specifically to the areas that you think needed conservation?

 

5. Can you show us pictures of the coin now? Acetone should have had no effect on that coin, from what I can see.

 

6. Is 62 the right grade? I realize that ownership adds 1.5 points, but be honest - what is the right grade for this coin?

 

+1

 

Ultimately, if the grade does not fit, you must resubmit. Try PCGS if you can wait a couple of months (or four) for results.

[BillJones]

That 1851-D gold dollar is way better than EF. If the color was a little more even it would be an AU-58 easily. It's got almost full Mint State sharpness, going by the photo, a lot of mint luster. Even in the old days, an EF-45 only had luster in the protected areas.

[Nutmeg Coin]

On my G$ I asked NGC to look at the coin for conservation, some dark areas that could be addressed; they said that it would not help the coin. My best guess is that the chatter was somehow quieted by surface matter removed by acetone. All I did was take the coin out of holder, put it into a cup with hardware store acetone, swish it around a little, put it in a flip and send it in. I was going to run the certified/CAC coin through NCS but didn't want to wait a month for that process. I could have paid the $50 expedite fee and NCS would have looked at it sooner. A long term dealer told me he uses MS70 on coins like this, which I have heard is too harsh.

[RWB]

The 1851-D is in a PCGS "AU-58" slab. I paid upper end EF for it. It was a better looking coin than a bunch of "MS-62s" and other gold dollars that were supposedly uncirculated.

[BillJones]

The 1851-D is in a PCGS "AU-58" slab. I paid upper end EF for it. It was a better looking coin than a bunch of "MS-62s" and other gold dollars that were supposedly uncirculated.

 

I don't know how you pulled that one off on a Dahlonega Mint coin. I've never bought a Dahlonega coin graded AU-58 for strong EF money that was accurately graded.

[RWB]

It didn't have the kind of "glowing" description that the "AUs as BUs" had, so apparently others ignored it or discounted the overall quality.