Re-submission, Conservation or Nothing

[Anubis63]

I submitted a Morgan dollar to NGC I would have bet $1000 it would have come back an MS65 if not a 66 it had so much original luster but it came back UNC OBV. IMPROPERLY CLEANED. I have a real hard time seeing that if anything it would be in the face only but like I said I really can't see that. Should I send it back for re-grading, or nothing? If the face is improperly cleaned can that be fixed by NCS? See pics. and maybe you'll see what I mean that is if I'm submitting pics. correctly.

 

[RWB]

Improper cleaning permanently damages the surface. It cannot be corrected, although many feel that long-term toning helps the appearance and marketability.

[orifdoc]

Without knowing anything else, there is of course a chance that the next set of graders will see it differently than the first set. That said, there is a far greater chance that the coin actually has been cleaned and they'll reject it every time. From your photos, it's hard to tell, but the coin doesn't appear to show much luster. It has the look of a polished or whizzed coin, which will be enormously reflective and flashy, but will never fool an expert.

 

Maybe it does have true luster and original surfaces and we just don't see it due to the photo technique. In that case, maybe there are hairlines or something else they don't like.

 

Your best bet is to show it to someone who has enough experience to evaluate it before you waste money on a second unsuccessful submission attempt. Many collectors and many dealers (but not all) can help you with this. You could also take it to a show. There, you might have the opportunity to get several opinions in a relatively short period of time.

[Anubis63]

Great advise Tanks. My problem with the grading is it says only the Obverse is cleaned compared to the reverse do you see a difference? I can't. I just night not be catching it. I'll follow you show advice,

[BillJones]

Bright white 1880-S dollars almost always have a lot of luster. The San Francisco Mint went through a period from 1879 to 1882 where a great many of their Morgan Dollars had a very bright or Proof-Like finish. I can't really tell what might be wrong with your coin from the photos although there might be some haziness to right of Ms. Liberty's face and to the right of date. That could be from cleaning.

 

The others are right improper cleaning involves the movement of metal, and once it's done there nothing that can reverse it. Toning might hide it and even make the coin "market acceptable," but real toning can take years and might not even take properly.

 

The 1880-S Morgan Dollar is a common coin. I'd say you would do best to chalk this one up to experience and move on. You should consult a knowledgeable person who might be able to show you what the problem is so that you will not repeat the mistake.

 

[BillJones]

Great advise Tanks. My problem with the grading is it says only the Obverse is cleaned compared to the reverse do you see a difference? I can't. I just night not be catching it. I'll follow you show advice,

 

I can't see a difference between the obverse and reverse from your photos, but that does not mean it isn't there. I tried to see if I had a photo of a Morgan dollar that could help you, but I don't have a perfect one.

 

Here is a link to a coin that Heritage sold that might help you.

 

Heritage 1880-S Dollar, MS-65

[Anubis63]

Wow very interesting I love all of your advice. Thanks.

[Nutmeg Coin]

It's happened to all of us (at some point). I would take it as a lesson learned and put it away in a holder as a coin for future reference for club members, etc.. Many coins that grade gem were dipped, I have heard dealers say how they routinely use MS70 and silver dip prior to submissions, but that should only done by those well familiar with the method.

[RWB]

As noted, we all have run across this kind of problem especially early in the collecting cycle.

 

(I recently ran into it with the family cat, which came back "artificially toned" from a local cat cleaner....)

[Conder101]

I would follow the last part of BillJone's advice and have some other knowledgeable person look at it and point out to you what if anything is wrong with it. It is in my opinion impossible to look at the images and give a definite answer about a possible problem. For one thing the fact that you told everyone it came back as cleaned probably biases a lot of people against it. If you had just asked for a grade opinion you might not have gotten any objections to it. (Personally I think it looks gorgeous, but then I'm looking at images not the coin in hand. Makes a BIG difference.)

[Anubis63]

I see what you mean Conder101 I feel I made a mistake having it graded because of the potential bias I thought of putting masking tape over the label and asking 3 local dealers what they think. I had an IHC graded at the same time I thought for sure it would come back at least an MS63 if not a 64 but it came back a 62 I also sent in an 1889 3CN I thought it would be a PF64 but it came back a PF63 I also sent in a Peace dollar thought it would be an MS65 but it came back a 66 so difficult for me to tell not quite enough experience I guess. Oh, and that IHC I mentioned a dealer told me it was cleaned before I sent it off I didn't believe him and as stated it cam back MS62 go figure .

[thebeav]

Hey, a Peace dollar in 66 ! That's not an easy feat, regardless of the date.

Congrats on that one !

Paul

 

[orifdoc]

Being off by one grade either way on a first-time submission is hugely better than my first try.

 

Figure out why they didn't like the Morgan and chalk it up to a learning experience. Remember, when grading coins, "ownership adds a point." In other words, all of us are biased to see the virtues of coins we own but not always their faults.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Mr. Swiatek in his report once had an article on how any dip removes metal on the surface of a silver coin. A tiny bit, and you are ok; a longer dip and the change is substantial and precludes a real grade. They seem to be using exceptional dips at NCS now for undipped coins, I've been surprised at the benefit in some cases.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I sent an AU 58 1849-D G$1, that was in an old NGC holder, into NCS and to then be followed up with re-slabbing at NGC. I wanted them to get some black grunge out of the "D" and a few of the other letters on the reverse.

 

It came back to me AU58, I still didn't like the amount of grunge in those letters, and now it had a small fiber on the face.

 

I complained that they didn't go far enough getting rid of the grunge, could they give it another try, and could they also double inspect the holder on the next return to make sure there wasn't a fiber encapsulated.

 

When I got it back the second time, and the only cost to me was my shipping down to them (I think), it came back grunge free and as AU58+.

 

If you go to NGC CENSUS DETAIL for this coin, AU58+, there's only one, and that's mine.

 

On my original submission, I had sent another gold coin for possible conservation but they didn't do it. They didn't want to effect its patina.

 

So, if it isn't going to be too expensive, I sort of like sending into NCS first for them to consider what would be the best treatment, if any treatment at all, since you have experts considering all of the attributes, and with the experience of knowing what they can or can't accomplish.

[MarkFeld]

I sent an AU 58 1849-D G$1, that was in an old NGC holder, into NCS and to then be followed up with re-slabbing at NGC. I wanted them to get some black grunge out of the "D" and a few of the other letters on the reverse.

 

It came back to me AU58, I still didn't like the amount of grunge in those letters, and now it had a small fiber on the face.

 

I complained that they didn't go far enough getting rid of the grunge, could they give it another try, and could they also double inspect the holder on the next return to make sure there wasn't a fiber encapsulated.

 

When I got it back the second time, and the only cost to me was my shipping down to them (I think), it came back grunge free and as AU58+.

 

If you go to NGC CENSUS DETAIL for this coin, AU58+, there's only one, and that's mine.

 

On my original submission, I had sent another gold coin for possible conservation but they didn't do it. They didn't want to effect its patina.

 

So, if it isn't going to be too expensive, I sort of like sending into NCS first for them to consider what would be the best treatment, if any treatment at all, since you have experts considering all of the attributes, and with the experience of knowing what they can or can't accomplish.

 

That doesn't work for/apply to cleaned coins.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Oops. I just glance over silver coins as the gold ones are my thing.

[bochiman]

Improper cleaning permanently damages the surface. It cannot be corrected, although many feel that long-term toning helps the appearance and marketability.

 

It can be corrected.

With enough natural wear.

 

Of course, the coin will no longer be as high a grade and the value drops, so on something like this date/mm, it is just better to purchase the date/mm at the grade one wants and chalk this up to harsh experience....though, trying to learn what to look for is a valuable endeavor by the OP so as to not get his by the same thing.

[Raisethis2]

Part of the problem is that this is a very common coin that typically comes very, very nice. I think I see what you are pointing to, there appears to be a luster break on the cheek. It's possible that someone just allowed a bit of rub take place (even unintentionally) on the cheek during handling. I've received at least a dozen coins come back obverse cleaned through the years, I cannot recall one saying reverse cleaned however.

 

I don't think there's a reason to resubmit this coin. Just push it into it's place in a coin board and enjoy it ungraded. It's still a great looking dollar.

 

 

[Anubis63]

Are you saying to remove it from the capsule?

[Anubis63]

I cracked open the NGC holder and took the Morgan Dollar to 3 local dealers doing business a long time and not a one of them mentioned it might be cleaned they did say it was a very nice coin, but as we all new anyway, it's a common date. Wow this is curiouser and curiouser.

[RWB]

Did they offer to buy the coin at an appropriate price for the "very nice coin?" That is the real test of a 'dealer's' comments.

[Anubis63]

Only one offered to buy it he said he had a whole lot of 1880 S's but he would take it off my hands for $30.00 now that's what I call low-balling. At an MS65 it's worth $185.00 at MS66 (which is what I believe it is) it's worth over $300.00. This is way to much drama for a coin .

[MarkFeld]

Only one offered to buy it he said he had a whole lot of 1880 S's but he would take it off my hands for $30.00 now that's what I call low-balling. At an MS65 it's worth $185.00 at MS66 (which is what I believe it is) it's worth over $300.00. This is way to much drama for a coin .

 

$30 does seem like a lowball offer, but a typical MS65 is not worth anywhere close to $185. A much more realistic value for an MS 65 would be $125.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Don't be offended. I have a MarkVIII and while I have driven it 90,000 miles I really want something different next time. Life is only so long ya know. So if you were hanging about asking what I'd give you for one I'd low ball you.

[RWB]

That kind of response suggests the dealer was being patronizing.

 

[Anubis63]

I kind of does dosn't it. So now it's on Craigs List.

[Insider]

Here is the "thing" with "improperly cleaned" coins.

 

Cleaning, conservation, whatever occurs in degrees. At some point (subjective for each of us and many times different from the TPGS)) the unnatural surface becomes noticeable enough to become taboo for us and not market acceptable for a TPGS.

 

The more knowledgeable you are and the better your methods of proper coin examination are, the easier it is to make a subjective decision about the quality & originality of a coin. UNFORTUNATELY, most have no clue! I've watched both dealers and collectors walk up to a grading service at a show (both ANACS & ICG) and ask "Is this cleaned?" when the coin looks so unnatural to me from several feet away that I can only think "Thank goodness for TPGS or this insufficiently_thoughtful_person should go broke!"

 

The fastest way to learn is to take a grading seminar. Without that, look at as many graded coins in MS-65 and above to see what a natural surface looks like.

 

In the meantime, some clues to unacceptable cleaning are the coin's color, the amount of parallel hairlines, and what we call the "halo effect." that occurs around an improperly cleaned coin's relief. Any film on a coin that is not improperly cleaned or results from a chemically altered surface may also cause a halo.

[coinman1794]

Only one offered to buy it he said he had a whole lot of 1880 S's but he would take it off my hands for $30.00 now that's what I call low-balling. At an MS65 it's worth $185.00 at MS66 (which is what I believe it is) it's worth over $300.00. This is way to much drama for a coin .

 

$30 is pretty good for a raw, cleaned 1880-S.

 

Many dealers will still tell you the coin is "nice" even though it has problems. On some level, it is still a pretty coin, even though its un-gradable.

 

What type of lighting have you/these long time dealers been examining the coin under? Proper lighting is essential to detecting the flaws noticed by professional graders, but in my experience, many dealers do not have proper lighting to examine the coins coming in.

[Anubis63]

After reading what you said about lighting I can see what you mean. 2 of the dealers just looked at it from the light in the store. The one I trust the most always takes my coins, puts on white gloves and looks at them through a lighted magnifying glass. He also did not mention that it may be cleaned and I didn't ask. I've been, I guess you would say, slowly collecting coins for a number of years but with little to no experience and only started to seriously build up my collection in the last 5 years or so but I still didn't do my homework it's only been in the last year that I've studied more about the ins and outs of the hobby so how do I find a coin show near me and about where to find different seminars I can attend?