Dcarr over strike question. 1 1

[brg5658]

#60!

 

 

[dcarr]

Are you hereby giving up your right to sue under any state's lemon law on something just because you didn't do your due diligence and inspect what kind of oil was in any vehicle you ever bought?

 

If you cared about faking people out you would obviously stamp all your coins. You are a skilled designer and could find a way to tastefully do it.

 

Sometimes my faith wavers. But if there is a good Lord he watches what you do at work.

 

Only six states have a "lemon law" for used cars: CT, MA, MN, NJ, NM, NY. If you live in any of the other 44 states and you buy a used car, you DEFINITELY have to perform your due diligence or you may very well get stuck with a "lemon" and without recourse. I reside in CO, so I would have nothing to "give up".

 

Also, a malfunctioning vehicle is a danger to the driver, passengers, and the general public. A malfunctioning coin is not. So they are completely different, except that "buyer beware" is generally the case with all things.

 

You do a fine job rationalizing why you can't figure out how to tastefully put your name on or mark your product sir. It stretches your logic a bit. It also makes me hope I don't let a penny out of my sight in front of a man like you.

 

FWIW, my analogies have been on if a bit extreme. Fruad is fraud. Thanks to your business coin newbs are one step further away from just being able to buy a piece of history without consulting the internet or an expert.

 

If that is the type of legacy you WANT to leave behind because you are too ashamed to put your name on your product so be it. I would be ashamed to be an offspring or business partner of yours so I understand.

 

"Buyer beware" is the most fitting epitaph for your marker according to your quotes.

 

What good would a "DC" mark do if a person refused to even research the relatively large DATE on the piece ?

The fantasy date IS the "signature".

 

[delta]

Am very glad Dan Carr has so effectively demolished the complaints of both the skeptics and those with a vendetta against his creations. With so many shenanigans out there involving collectibles, his is a straightforward aboveboard operation.

[Hard Times]

Not to beat on a dead horse too long, but the linked CoinWorld article points out the real problem with these fantasy coins:

 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.html

 

To quote from the article:

 

"Unfortunately, every now and then one of these overstrikes ends up in the possession of someone who is not familiar with them. The phone call I received concerning the 1922-D Walking Liberty half dollar began with the following message: “I may have a really rare coin — it is not listed in any of the price guides.” It did not take too long for me to identify the piece as a Dan Carr overstrike, although the disappointed caller probably contacted a few more people before accepting what I told him."

 

Simply, the noninformed person running across these can be swindled. Most of the world has no idea these 'fantasy' pieces exist. Those that don't call and are influenced by someone with apparent 'expertise' that has unsavory intentions can be convinced that these are a real and a rare US mint product. Since these pieces don't have the word 'Copy' or 'Fantasy' or something on them, these people can be had by the unscrupulous. It is just a matter of time until we hear about some senior citizen that was convinced to pay alot of money for one or more of these only to find out later they were had. Hence for consumer protection reasons, I am not sure why the feds haven't stepped in on this - I guess they have bigger fish to fry but it is only a matter of time probably.

 

Best, HT

 

 

[CaptHenway]

Not to beat on a dead horse too long, but the linked CoinWorld article points out the real problem with these fantasy coins:

 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.html

 

To quote from the article:

 

"Unfortunately, every now and then one of these overstrikes ends up in the possession of someone who is not familiar with them. The phone call I received concerning the 1922-D Walking Liberty half dollar began with the following message: “I may have a really rare coin — it is not listed in any of the price guides.” It did not take too long for me to identify the piece as a Dan Carr overstrike, although the disappointed caller probably contacted a few more people before accepting what I told him."

 

Simply, the noninformed person running across these can be swindled. Most of the world has no idea these 'fantasy' pieces exist. Those that don't call and are influenced by someone with apparent 'expertise' that has unsavory intentions can be convinced that these are a real and a rare US mint product. Since these pieces don't have the word 'Copy' or 'Fantasy' or something on them, these people can be had by the unscrupulous. It is just a matter of time until we hear about some senior citizen that was convinced to pay alot of money for one or more of these only to find out later they were had. Hence for consumer protection reasons, I am not sure why the feds haven't stepped in on this - I guess they have bigger fish to fry but it is only a matter of time probably.

 

Best, HT

 

 

This illustrates a valuable point. The average person looking up a non-existent date in a standard reference work will NOT, upon seeing the date not listed, assume "Oh, it must be a fantasy coin created by a private minter" and shrug it off. He or she WILL assume that it is a fabulously rare coin that must be worth a lot of money. This is why such pieces are supposed to be marked in accordance with the Hobby Protection Act of 1973.

 

TD

[coinman_23885]

This illustrates a valuable point. The average person looking up a non-existent date in a standard reference work will NOT, upon seeing the date not listed, assume "Oh, it must be a fantasy coin created by a private minter" and shrug it off. He or she WILL assume that it is a fabulously rare coin that must be worth a lot of money. This is why such pieces are supposed to be marked in accordance with the Hobby Protection Act of 1973.

 

TD

 

Yet every time you or I (or any other poster) brings up that point, we are written off as stupid, naïve, and "grasping at straws." Maybe this will cause people to wake up. The HPA and counterfeiting statutes are not written for informed collectors and numismatists, but the "average" American - think lowest common denominator.

[coinman_23885]

P.S. Thank you HT for posting this!

[CaptHenway]

This illustrates a valuable point. The average person looking up a non-existent date in a standard reference work will NOT, upon seeing the date not listed, assume "Oh, it must be a fantasy coin created by a private minter" and shrug it off. He or she WILL assume that it is a fabulously rare coin that must be worth a lot of money. This is why such pieces are supposed to be marked in accordance with the Hobby Protection Act of 1973.

 

TD

 

Yet every time you or I (or any other poster) brings up that point, we are written off as stupid, naïve, and "grasping at straws." Maybe this will cause people to wake up. The HPA and counterfeiting statutes are not written for informed collectors and numismatists, but the "average" American - think lowest common denominator.

 

It is hard to fight greed with logic.

TD

[dcarr]

Not to beat on a dead horse too long, but the linked CoinWorld article points out the real problem with these fantasy coins:

 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.html

 

To quote from the article:

 

"Unfortunately, every now and then one of these overstrikes ends up in the possession of someone who is not familiar with them. The phone call I received concerning the 1922-D Walking Liberty half dollar began with the following message: “I may have a really rare coin — it is not listed in any of the price guides.” It did not take too long for me to identify the piece as a Dan Carr overstrike, although the disappointed caller probably contacted a few more people before accepting what I told him."

 

Simply, the noninformed person running across these can be swindled. Most of the world has no idea these 'fantasy' pieces exist. Those that don't call and are influenced by someone with apparent 'expertise' that has unsavory intentions can be convinced that these are a real and a rare US mint product. Since these pieces don't have the word 'Copy' or 'Fantasy' or something on them, these people can be had by the unscrupulous. It is just a matter of time until we hear about some senior citizen that was convinced to pay alot of money for one or more of these only to find out later they were had. Hence for consumer protection reasons, I am not sure why the feds haven't stepped in on this - I guess they have bigger fish to fry but it is only a matter of time probably.

 

Best, HT

 

 

Nowhere in that Coin World article did it state how the person acquired it or what the person paid for it, or if they even actually purchased it. And if they did actually purchase it, and they paid up to about $100 for it, then no harm done since that is the approximate current market value.

 

It is one thing to find or be given a coin and hope that it might be worth a lot of money. It is all together a different thing to actually spend a lot of money for a coin.

 

Any coin can be used to perpetrate a scam, if a person is intent on doing so.

 

If a person, for example, paid way too much money for an ordinary Peace Dollar because it had "TRVST" instead of "TRUST" on it, who would be to blame for that (if anyone) ?

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by dcarr

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

 

I won my own "time to response" bet. I kill me

[comicdonna]

This illustrates a valuable point. The average person looking up a non-existent date in a standard reference work will NOT, upon seeing the date not listed, assume "Oh, it must be a fantasy coin created by a private minter" and shrug it off. He or she WILL assume that it is a fabulously rare coin that must be worth a lot of money. This is why such pieces are supposed to be marked in accordance with the Hobby Protection Act of 1973.

 

TD

 

Yet every time you or I (or any other poster) brings up that point, we are written off as stupid, naïve, and "grasping at straws." Maybe this will cause people to wake up. The HPA and counterfeiting statutes are not written for informed collectors and numismatists, but the "average" American - think lowest common denominator.

For now, he remains above the law.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I saw that movie. I didn't know he was in it. I liked the slam bang punch your face guy, though. He NEVER falls down. NEVER.

[MJ]

The moment DCarr shows up here, I predict at least a 70 post thread...

 

Mark

 

Look at the big brain on Brad

 

Nice call.......

 

mark

[MJ]

Where is Brandon when we need him

 

mark

[physics-fan3.14]

Where is Brandon when we need him

 

mark

 

I will subsitute:

 

 

[MJ]

Jason that will do ; )

 

mark

[coinman_23885]

Nowhere in that Coin World article did it state how the person acquired it or what the person paid for it, or if they even actually purchased it. And if they did actually purchase it, and they paid up to about $100 for it, then no harm done since that is the approximate current market value.

 

It doesn't matter. The individual mistook the coin for a genuine 1922 half dollar as struck by the Mint. Legally that is enough. It doesn't matter whether you agree with the law and think it is well rooted in sound policy or not.

 

As for your "harm" argument, I suppose it is merely repetition of your bogus standing argument. The government has standing to enforce it own laws, and Article I, Section 8 plainly gives Congress exclusive power to pass laws concerning the regulation of counterfeits and the unauthorized use of images of U.S. coins and currency as well as to coin money.

 

I have had enough of the DCarr threads. It doesn't matter how much evidence or legal citation there is to support everything we have told you, you are now blatantly ignoring the law IMHO. The government is slow and inefficient. In time, I do think the issues will be revisited by the government as more and more people are fooled by your "fantasy" pieces.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Are you hereby giving up your right to sue under any state's lemon law on something just because you didn't do your due diligence and inspect what kind of oil was in any vehicle you ever bought?

 

If you cared about faking people out you would obviously stamp all your coins. You are a skilled designer and could find a way to tastefully do it.

 

Sometimes my faith wavers. But if there is a good Lord he watches what you do at work.

 

Only six states have a "lemon law" for used cars: CT, MA, MN, NJ, NM, NY. If you live in any of the other 44 states and you buy a used car, you DEFINITELY have to perform your due diligence or you may very well get stuck with a "lemon" and without recourse. I reside in CO, so I would have nothing to "give up".

 

Also, a malfunctioning vehicle is a danger to the driver, passengers, and the general public. A malfunctioning coin is not. So they are completely different, except that "buyer beware" is generally the case with all things.

 

You do a fine job rationalizing why you can't figure out how to tastefully put your name on or mark your product sir. It stretches your logic a bit. It also makes me hope I don't let a penny out of my sight in front of a man like you.

 

FWIW, my analogies have been on if a bit extreme. Fruad is fraud. Thanks to your business coin newbs are one step further away from just being able to buy a piece of history without consulting the internet or an expert.

 

If that is the type of legacy you WANT to leave behind because you are too ashamed to put your name on your product so be it. I would be ashamed to be an offspring or business partner of yours so I understand.

 

"Buyer beware" is the most fitting epitaph for your marker according to your quotes.

 

What good would a "DC" mark do if a person refused to even research the relatively large DATE on the piece ?

The fantasy date IS the "signature".

 

Buddy, you do some good work. Don't be embarrassed to use put your name on them.

 

If I created an attractive coin I'd go Lord of the Rings and decorate the rim with MarkVIIIMarc, my name or my business name or whatever.

 

Then again maybe after getting beat up online by me and SOOO many others its understandable to be somewhat shy about using your name.

[nk1nk]

Not to beat on a dead horse too long, but the linked CoinWorld article points out the real problem with these fantasy coins:

 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.html

 

To quote from the article:

 

"Unfortunately, every now and then one of these overstrikes ends up in the possession of someone who is not familiar with them. The phone call I received concerning the 1922-D Walking Liberty half dollar began with the following message: “I may have a really rare coin — it is not listed in any of the price guides.” It did not take too long for me to identify the piece as a Dan Carr overstrike, although the disappointed caller probably contacted a few more people before accepting what I told him."

 

Simply, the noninformed person running across these can be swindled. Most of the world has no idea these 'fantasy' pieces exist. Those that don't call and are influenced by someone with apparent 'expertise' that has unsavory intentions can be convinced that these are a real and a rare US mint product. Since these pieces don't have the word 'Copy' or 'Fantasy' or something on them, these people can be had by the unscrupulous. It is just a matter of time until we hear about some senior citizen that was convinced to pay alot of money for one or more of these only to find out later they were had. Hence for consumer protection reasons, I am not sure why the feds haven't stepped in on this - I guess they have bigger fish to fry but it is only a matter of time probably.

 

Best, HT

 

 

Bigger fish to fry? Like who? You guys act like Dcarr is satan himself. You can garaun damn T there are members on this board that have called, written, emailed, sent carrier pigeon messages, smoke signals and every other possible form of communication to the Feds, they haven't done anything because there is nothing to be done, trust me he would have been notified by now. As the saying goes, put up or shut up! Until the government says he's producing counterfeits then all the anti Carr noise is just a bunch of blah blah cry baby titty mouth tantrum throwing none sense.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Not to beat on a dead horse too long, but the linked CoinWorld article points out the real problem with these fantasy coins:

 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.html

 

To quote from the article:

 

"Unfortunately, every now and then one of these overstrikes ends up in the possession of someone who is not familiar with them. The phone call I received concerning the 1922-D Walking Liberty half dollar began with the following message: “I may have a really rare coin — it is not listed in any of the price guides.” It did not take too long for me to identify the piece as a Dan Carr overstrike, although the disappointed caller probably contacted a few more people before accepting what I told him."

 

Simply, the noninformed person running across these can be swindled. Most of the world has no idea these 'fantasy' pieces exist. Those that don't call and are influenced by someone with apparent 'expertise' that has unsavory intentions can be convinced that these are a real and a rare US mint product. Since these pieces don't have the word 'Copy' or 'Fantasy' or something on them, these people can be had by the unscrupulous. It is just a matter of time until we hear about some senior citizen that was convinced to pay alot of money for one or more of these only to find out later they were had. Hence for consumer protection reasons, I am not sure why the feds haven't stepped in on this - I guess they have bigger fish to fry but it is only a matter of time probably.

 

Best, HT

 

 

Bigger fish to fry? Like who? You guys act like Dcarr is satan himself. You can garaun damn T there are members on this board that have called, written, emailed, sent carrier pigeon messages, smoke signals and every other possible form of communication to the Feds, they haven't done anything because there is nothing to be done, trust me he would have been notified by now. As the saying goes, put up or shut up! Until the government says he's producing counterfeits then all the anti Carr noise is just a bunch of blah blah cry baby titty mouth tantrum throwing none sense.

 

 

ATTICA ATTICA ATTICA!!!!!

 

But, unfortunately, the laws are what they are. Inaction by the Government does not translate into innocence of the person not in compliance with the laws, nor does it translate into elimination or change of the existing laws, until Congress declares otherwise.

 

As to the bigger fish, there is the problem of cyber theft, terrorists, drug cartels, money laundering, as a starting point. There are only so many U.S. Attorneys and LEOs available. Wait until a slow year, when there is time to address the matter.

[MarkFeld]

Not to beat on a dead horse too long, but the linked CoinWorld article points out the real problem with these fantasy coins:

 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.html

 

To quote from the article:

 

"Unfortunately, every now and then one of these overstrikes ends up in the possession of someone who is not familiar with them. The phone call I received concerning the 1922-D Walking Liberty half dollar began with the following message: “I may have a really rare coin — it is not listed in any of the price guides.” It did not take too long for me to identify the piece as a Dan Carr overstrike, although the disappointed caller probably contacted a few more people before accepting what I told him."

 

Simply, the noninformed person running across these can be swindled. Most of the world has no idea these 'fantasy' pieces exist. Those that don't call and are influenced by someone with apparent 'expertise' that has unsavory intentions can be convinced that these are a real and a rare US mint product. Since these pieces don't have the word 'Copy' or 'Fantasy' or something on them, these people can be had by the unscrupulous. It is just a matter of time until we hear about some senior citizen that was convinced to pay alot of money for one or more of these only to find out later they were had. Hence for consumer protection reasons, I am not sure why the feds haven't stepped in on this - I guess they have bigger fish to fry but it is only a matter of time probably.

 

Best, HT

 

 

Bigger fish to fry? Like who? You guys act like Dcarr is satan himself. You can garaun damn T there are members on this board that have called, written, emailed, sent carrier pigeon messages, smoke signals and every other possible form of communication to the Feds, they haven't done anything because there is nothing to be done, trust me he would have been notified by now. As the saying goes, put up or shut up! Until the government says he's producing counterfeits then all the anti Carr noise is just a bunch of blah blah cry baby titty mouth tantrum throwing none sense.

 

Making exaggerations and name calling of those who disagree, doesn't do anything to validate your differing point of view. Nor does jumping to conclusions about the fact that Mr. Carr hasn't "been notified by now".

[MJ]

Safe to say yet another DCarr thread where nothing is learned and no minds were changed. If anything people are just digging in their heels even more.

 

Mark

 

 

[mark]

MJ:

 

Even though you and I disagree about the DCarr "coins," you and I are in total agreement about "no minds changed."

 

Mark

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Safe to say yet another DCarr thread where nothing is learned and no minds were changed. If anything people are just digging in their heels even more.

 

Mark

 

 

isn't the issue a matter of law? .

 

It is not, to me, an I like Mr. Carr or not, or I like his work or not issue.

[MJ]

Safe to say yet another DCarr thread where nothing is learned and no minds were changed. If anything people are just digging in their heels even more.

 

Mark

 

 

isn't the issue a matter of law? .

 

 

Hiya John

 

Yes it's a matter of the law. Your interpretation differs then mine.

 

mark

 

Edited August 27, 2016 by MJ

[nk1nk]

Not to beat on a dead horse too long, but the linked CoinWorld article points out the real problem with these fantasy coins:

 

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/08/1922-d-half-dollar-struck-at-private-mint.html

 

To quote from the article:

 

"Unfortunately, every now and then one of these overstrikes ends up in the possession of someone who is not familiar with them. The phone call I received concerning the 1922-D Walking Liberty half dollar began with the following message: “I may have a really rare coin — it is not listed in any of the price guides.” It did not take too long for me to identify the piece as a Dan Carr overstrike, although the disappointed caller probably contacted a few more people before accepting what I told him."

 

Simply, the noninformed person running across these can be swindled. Most of the world has no idea these 'fantasy' pieces exist. Those that don't call and are influenced by someone with apparent 'expertise' that has unsavory intentions can be convinced that these are a real and a rare US mint product. Since these pieces don't have the word 'Copy' or 'Fantasy' or something on them, these people can be had by the unscrupulous. It is just a matter of time until we hear about some senior citizen that was convinced to pay alot of money for one or more of these only to find out later they were had. Hence for consumer protection reasons, I am not sure why the feds haven't stepped in on this - I guess they have bigger fish to fry but it is only a matter of time probably.

 

Best, HT

 

 

Bigger fish to fry? Like who? You guys act like Dcarr is satan himself. You can garaun damn T there are members on this board that have called, written, emailed, sent carrier pigeon messages, smoke signals and every other possible form of communication to the Feds, they haven't done anything because there is nothing to be done, trust me he would have been notified by now. As the saying goes, put up or shut up! Until the government says he's producing counterfeits then all the anti Carr noise is just a bunch of blah blah cry baby titty mouth tantrum throwing none sense.

 

Making exaggerations and name calling of those who disagree, doesn't do anything to validate your differing point of view. Nor does jumping to conclusions about the fact that Mr. Carr hasn't "been notified by now".

 

So you are implying that he has been notified? He contributes to these threads regularly, I'm sure if he's been notified he would have mentioned it. I don't want to "jump to any conclusions" so I'll ask you straightforward are you saying he has been notified and continues to sell and produce strikes that he shouldn't? For the record I didn't call anyone names just interpreted the noise that comes from the anti Carr camp. Was it a bit immature? Sure. It's just amusing and a bit annoying to listen to all the arm chair lawyers and the hypothetical scenarios.

 

As to Mcknowitalls comments you any validate even more to me that this is all much ado about nothing. You listed several things that are occupying the governments time and you position this issue in its rightful place very far down on the who gives a list. If it takes a very slow year to address this its for good reason it's not worth the effort and resources to address and we can continue to interprete the law ourselves. The bottom line is you are assuming your interpretation of the laws are correct. We will just continue to disagree until a slow year comes to pass, hopefully in our lifetimes we can settle this once and for all.

 

Nick

Edited August 27, 2016 by nk1nk

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

There may be a simple path to determine the interpretation of the laws. Directly contact the U.S. Attorney General. Not a person at the U.S. Mint. Not a person at the Treasury.

 

State all the positions of why the pieces are within the definition of the law and are legal under the present language of the law.

 

As I recall, this was previously suggested.

[delta]

Numismatics is clearly in decline, and among the reasons are the profusion of high quality counterfeits, as well as plenty of other scams, shady deals, misrepresentations, and chicanery, so almost every offer is treated as suspicious. The recent discovery of some nearly perfect counterfeits leads to the conclusion that with advancing technology, future fakes will be virtually undetectable, and some are probably already around. It's a downward spiral.

 

By contrast, Dan Carr's exonumia are a boost to numismatics, in their small way they are adding to the interest, popularity and collectibility of coins, and he should receive appreciation for his considerable efforts and craftsmanship.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

There may be a simple path to determine the interpretation of the laws. Directly contact the U.S. Attorney General. Not a person at the U.S. Mint. Not a person at the Treasury.

 

State all the positions of why the pieces are within the definition of the law and are legal under the present language of the law.

 

As I recall, this was previously suggested.

 

He won't do this of course nor will he seek a civil adjudication of the issue. If he calls attention to pieces that are no longer hypotheticals (i.e. that he has now made and freely distributed) and the government rejects his arguments, then he is royally screwed. Deep down, I think he knows that he is tip toeing a fine line at best and that his arguments are far from ironclad (and that characterization of his position is giving him much more credit than I think his arguments deserve).

 

For the time being, we must wait to see. Maybe the guy ATS that sued the bullion round company for HPA violations will take the Carr pieces up some day.

 

P.S. Where is Brandon when you need him? I'm sure he could post more comical memes that are perfect for this thread and topic.

 

Edited August 27, 2016 by coinman_23885

[MJ]

 

By contrast, Dan Carr's exonumia are a boost to numismatics, in their small way they are adding to the interest, popularity and collectibility of coins, and he should receive appreciation for his considerable efforts and craftsmanship.

 

 

This has always been my stance as well. I know a few collectors who got intiated into US coins by first collecting Carr coins. It was their gateway. Conversely I know several HEAVYWEIGHTS ( and I don't mean in pounds Roger) of the coin world who collect these as well.

 

mark