What is this? take 2

[JTO]

Is this a US Mint issue?

 

Did the mint really sellout to the big marketers with no public release?

 

I found this on MCM for an obscene amount. It appears to be a US mint issue and NGC has certified it giving it credibility. On the US Mint website there is no mention of this coin on the product schedule. can anyone tell me is the really what is? It seems to be a direct to marketers sellout by the US Mint completely cutting out the public. On the competitive set under the national park service this is listed with no points assigned. It is not a "non-competitive issue" (ie Norse medals) with 0 points, what the.....

John

 

PS sorry for the re-post I did not have the picture correctly added to the first.

 

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[PocketArt]

Looks like this is a product of the Royal Mint. Also, 1 oz silver coins as well with a limit of 10,000.

 

Here is a link with item description for the silver and a bit background on these products.

 

https://www.moderncoinmart.com/2016-1-oz-high-relief-proof-silver-winged-liberty-saint-gaudens-commemorative-ngc-pf70-uc-mercanti-signed-label-sku39589.html

 

 

[JTO]

Thank you,

 

I got the image from MCM but missed the description that you found. It is now listed in a way that would lead one to believe that it is of US origin. Having the signature of Mercanti is sleazy, in my opinion, because it reinforces the deception. The token has "Untied States of America" on the reverse. Now on closer inspection there is no value so it is a token not a coin but it is seriously close to counterfeiting, based on the definition of the Hobby Protection Act of 1973 and amended in 1988 .

[Electric Peak]

See Coin World article dated 4/12/16.

http://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/04/john-mercanti-revives-20-dollar-designs.html

 

It's not a U.S. Mint product, but from GovMint

[RWB]

It has no denomination. Counterfeits imitate a real coin by having both issuing national authority and denomination.

 

What you have pictured is a rather crude medal sold to suckers.

[centinel]

This medal/token features the original artwork St. Gaudens submitted for the $20 gold which featured a winged Liberty. (See Don Taxay's "The US Mint and Coinage" for other photos and text) It is a shame Mercanti lent his name to it, as he is still very respected. I doubt St. Gaudens would have approved of any of this. I have to commend the U.S. Mint for not having anything to do with questionable stuff like this. Thankfully they still draw the line somewhere.

[RWB]

The "stuff" on the token is a very distant relation to Saint-Gaudens' sketches or final designs. Look in Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 for authentic photos and descriptions.

 

(Taxay is obsolete and misleading by modern standards.)

[JTO]

I have read the references, Renaissance of American Coinage, Striking Change etc... The only St. Gaudens' works that I have found that is an approximation of this token are rough sketch book drawings. My main problem stems not from a retired mint worker seeking out a few extra bucks. It is from NGC slabbing them without reference to origin or description (i.e. from the US Mint or Govmint.com or Private minting and then are they So-Called Dollars or private tokens or…) To further muddy the waters if you go to the competitive NGC Modern Commemorative section and click on National Park Service, 100th Anniversary, 2016, Complete NGC has included these “things” right next to the US Mint coins. Currently on MCM the silver versions are available graded Pr-69, Pr-70 and Gem. If NGC is using this as a way to distinguish themselves from PCGS I think it is a big mistake.

So, it is not Mercanti that I have a problem with it is NGC. The gold is selling for 3X melt and the silver is selling in NGC Slabbed Proof 70 for 10 times melt. Unless the park service is getting that money this deal stinks. Just my opinion,

John

 

[Lucky One]

I have read the references, Renaissance of American Coinage, Striking Change etc... The only St. Gaudens' works that I have found that is an approximation of this token are rough sketch book drawings. My main problem stems not from a retired mint worker seeking out a few extra bucks. It is from NGC slabbing them without reference to origin or description (i.e. from the US Mint or Govmint.com or Private minting and then are they So-Called Dollars or private tokens or…) To further muddy the waters if you go to the competitive NGC Modern Commemorative section and click on National Park Service, 100th Anniversary, 2016, Complete NGC has included these “things” right next to the US Mint coins. Currently on MCM the silver versions are available graded Pr-69, Pr-70 and Gem. If NGC is using this as a way to distinguish themselves from PCGS I think it is a big mistake.

So, it is not Mercanti that I have a problem with it is NGC. The gold is selling for 3X melt and the silver is selling in NGC Slabbed Proof 70 for 10 times melt. Unless the park service is getting that money this deal stinks. Just my opinion,

John

 

 

exactly, with all due respect to NGC, a sleazy slabbing imho...

[RWB]

If you look in RAC 1905-1908 you will see a photo of one of Saint-Gaudens' plaster sketch models that is the basis for the awful token obverse.

[richarma]

They are selling these on e-bay as well. I asked MCM through e-bay how much of the cost went to the National Park Service (NPS) or the National Park Foundation (NPF) and they told me I would have to ask the mint. I found it kind of strange because it isn't marketed in an ungraded form on either the NPF or the NPS web site despite the NPS talking about the US Mints Commemoratives, nor could I find anything on the Saint Gaudens National Historic Site about it. It does look like you get a National Park Foundation bag with it so it seems like it should be sanctioned and that they get some of the proceeds as I doubt that they would let GovMint/MCM use their name like that if they weren't getting some proceeds from it.

[Conder101]

You would have to ask the mint? Which mint? Who made them? Not the US Mint.

 

I found it kind of strange because it isn't marketed in an ungraded form on either the NPF or the NPS web site despite the NPS talking about the US Mints Commemoratives, nor could I find anything on the Saint Gaudens National Historic Site about it.

That's because they are not associated with those organizations and it is not an "official" item. It is just a privately made medal, made for their own profits. They make no claim in their ad that ANY of the money is going to the NPF or the NPS

[RWB]

I smell a batch of lutefisk.

[richarma]

They actually do claim that it supports the NPS on this link:

 

https://www.moderncoinmart.com/info-vault/articles/moderncoinmart-exclusive-2016-winged-liberty.html

 

 

"Licensed by the official charity of the NPS that was founded in 1967, this coin is an opportunity to support a great national nonprofit organization."

 

 

I assume they are talking about the National Park Foundation but doesn't answer how much goes to them. I find the marketing rather strange on this coin. I don't have enough numismatic background to know what to think about this coin as I have only recently gotten back into coin collecting after taking years off since childhood. If it is as they purport it to be, I would be ok wasting some money on it. However, if as some of the other commentators state this was never Saint Gaudens idea for the coin I wouldn't want in.

 

[RWB]

Saint-Gaudens created many sketch models and drawings. This medal resembles one of them -- at least in superficial arrangement.

[Conder101]

First of all it is NOT a coin, just a 1 oz gold or silver round. RWB is right it only resembles some of his sketches, not any finished design. And frankly the execution of the artwork is pretty pathetic. If Mercanti did the plasters that produced that he should hang up his tools. This piece should not be worth more than melt

[Raisethis2]

Kinda shameful that NGC would get involved in grading this bullion piece. As a result actual coin submissions get delayed.

 

As was mentioned earlier, it's just another way for people to be taken advantage of. Buy this and it's a certainty that you're going to lose money (unless gold goes to $5,000 an ounce).